Interviews
An Interview with Massimo Pigliucci
This interview is with Massimo Pigliucci, who is K.D. Irani Professor of Philosophy at City College of New York, former board member of The Stoic Fellowship, and one of our favorite scholars in the Modern Stoicism movement.
He has written valuable books on practicing Stoicism, and this month’s interview comes from a recent dialogue with StoicDan and Joe Bullock at Orlando Stoics (some of the punctuation in the transcript is arbitrary, since speakers paused for a comma or period). Massimo is currently developing new content on Substack. To watch the full dialogue, subscribe to StoicDan’s YouTube channel.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of Orlando Stoics)
JB = Joe Bullock
MP = Massimo Pigliucci
SD: The article that you published recently in Philosophy Now has such an interesting angle to it: talking about the virtues, not just the four virtues that we have in Stoicism (wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance) but also two additional virtues, and I like how you expanded that conversation there, but also talked about the origins of virtue, for example the word virtue comes from the Latin word ‘vir’, and then of course that links to the Greek word ‘arete’ which means excellence, and so let’s start with that; can you expand a little bit on that.
MP: First of all, thanks for having me tonight, I think this is going to be an interesting discussion. The first thing to understand about the concept of virtue is that it appears to be in fact universal, at least universal among so-called literate societies, that is societies that have writing, and therefore a record of written books and essays and stuff like that, research has not been done on that, in this respect, on non-leader societies as far as I know, at the least, but still that means a fairly large number of societies both historically and currently, and so the first thing that’s interesting is that everybody seems to have a concept of virtue or something like what we would call virtue, so it’s important to be clear about what exactly we mean by that and the Greco-Romans had a very specific definition, as you pointed out, of virtue, but I would say that we should probably start with the modern scientific understanding of what a virtue is.
Virtue is simply a behavioral disposition, a positive ethical behavioral disposition, so it’s a character trait. There’s been a discussion for some time, over the last 10 or 20 years in Psychology, whether even the word character, the concept of character, actually had any scientific basis, because some people started pointing out, on the basis of psychological research, that human beings respond dramatically different to the situation in the moment, and therefore some research seemed to indicate that there is no thing as character, that we are just very flexible, that we respond to whatever happens in the moment, depending on social cues, depending on circumstances, but I think things have settled down at this point, at least this is my reading of the literature, and it turns out that both sides of the debate had had some right on their side, it’s true that there are character traits in the sense that people, other things being equal, seem to behave more or less consistently in a certain direction, so when we say that my friend is generous, we what we mean is, that other things being equal, that that person acts in a generous fashion, so he devotes money or time or energy or resources to help other people, that is true, but it’s also true that anybody can act generously or ungenerously, depending on specific circumstances, there are environmental circumstances, social cues, and things like that, may dramatically alter how we behave especially if we’re not aware of those social cues.
Let me give you a classic example. A classic example is the so-called bystander effect, so this has been demonstrated by psychologists in a number of circumstances, but the typical setup is: you walk into a mall, and you [see] a person on the floor that is clearly in distress, and other people in a circle around that person, not doing anything, now you don’t know that this is actually a setup, nobody’s dying, both the person on the floor and the people in the circle actually are part of the experiment, but you don’t know that. How do you react? Well, typically people do not intervene; they just join the circle, and there may be a number of reasons for that, the most important one appears to be that people don’t want to do things that are not in-sync with the behavior of people that surround them. So you might be thinking: wait a minute, this guy seems in distress, but nobody else is doing anything, so maybe this is a joke, or maybe this is a setup, or maybe there’s a candid camera somewhere, I don’t want to be the first one to intervene.
Now if somebody does intervene, then everybody is much more likely to intervene. So this is a bystander effect, … that’s the science perspective, more or less. I mean, we can talk more about it, if people have questions, but that’s the basic idea… [Next,] what is the function of a human being? So under what circumstances I can say that a human being has arete? And there is where we get into the specifics of the Greco-Roman, and in fact, even more specifically the Stoic approach to virtue, because it turns out that different schools had a different answer to what was the proper function of a human being, just to mention two, the Epicureans thought that the proper function of a human being was to live a life of ataraxia, of tranquility, a mental tranquility, the Stoics on the other hand thought that the proper function of a human being is two-fold, one is to exercise reason, because we’re rational animals, and two is to be helpful to other people, because we’re social animals, and so to be virtuous, to have arete for a Stoic means to think clearly and to be pro-social, essentially. I’m gonna stop there because that was a long answer to your first question.
JB: I think that actually leads into the next question quite well: the additional two virtues that you talk about is the idea of humanity, humanity being defined as interpersonal strengths that involve lending to and befriending others, examples include love and kindness, and transcendence, the strength that forges connections to the larger world and thereby provide meaning, examples include gratitude, hope, and spirituality, so [could you] break these down a little bit. When people hear things like faith or spirituality, and what that may mean for people that are of non-religious beliefs, and how they these things may still apply.
MP: That’s a great question, so first of all, let’s step back for a second here, the two terms that you referring to, humanity and transcendence, are these two additional virtues that were discovered to be more or less universal, by research done by a group of psychologists a number of years ago. Katherine Dahlsgaard and her collaborators wrote a paper, published in the Review of General Psychology, called “Shared virtue: the convergence of valued human strengths across culture and history”, and what Dalhsgaard and her collaborators did, was to ask the question, okay, there is a lot of talk in the European Western tradition about virtue, not just the Stoics, not just the Greco-Roman, the Christians certainly also talk about the concept of virtue, but is this just the West? Is it just another Western thing, or is it something that actually other societies have, you know, recognized as well, and so what they did was to investigate the concept of and how many virtues people recognized, if they did, and how they define them across a number of traditions.
They included Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, obviously the Greco-Roman philosophies, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and what they found out was that, first of all, that all of these traditions recognized the notion of virtue, second, as you might expect, however, there is variety between these cultural variations, between these cultures, that is, some cultures emphasize some virtues over others, the number of virtues that different cultures recognize is different, etc. etc., but then they ask is there a core that is common to everybody, is there a basic stat, let’s say, virtues that is actually common either to everybody, or at least the majority the large majority of these cultures, and the answer is yes, and interestingly, the things that are common to all of those cultures are the four fundamental, four cardinal virtues, that the Stoics and the Greco-Romans recognize, so that’s practical wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance, plus these other two that you just mentioned, transcendence and humanity.
That is interesting in and of itself, because it tells you that apparently all or most of the literate societies in the world have gravitated around the same core of character traits of behavioral dispositions, that are valued within those societies, so that’s the background to that terminology, now the two that we’re not familiar with, that is humanity and transcendence, are however, I argue [are] found in Stoicism, but the Stoics don’t call them virtues, so they are concepts that are part of Stoic theory and practice, they don’t fall into the four cardinal virtues, specifically I suggest that humanity encompasses, is not very different from the Stoic concept of cosmopolitanism, so the Stoics famously say, that just like the Cynics, they say that we should behave or we should regard other people as our sisters and brothers throughout the world, right? So, cosmopolitanism literally means being a citizen of the world, this is something that [the] origin is attributed depending on who you talk to, and which source you check, it’s either attributed to Socrates or Diogenes the Cynic, doesn’t matter, we know that it’s part of that tradition and the Stoics definitely made it a centerpiece of their philosophy, so I think that humanity includes or comprises the notion of cosmopolitanism.
The other one, transcendence, also can be interpreted in a number of ways, most of which as you pointed out do sound religious, but we’ll get there in a second, but one way to understand … the concept of transcendence, from the Stoic perspective, is this notion that the Stoics emphasized that we are interconnected, not just to other people, that’s cosmopolitanism, but to the cosmos at large, to the universe at large, so we are part and parcel of the universe, remember of course that for the ancient Stoics, the universe was a living organism and endowed with the famous logos, reason, and so we’re little bits and pieces of the cosmic universe, we literally function as parts or as cells of the cosmic organism, so that is a way of achieving transcendence, thinking in those terms, when Marcus Aurelius engages in what we today call “the view from above”, when he thinks about, you know, the vast span of space and time, and reminds himself that he’s a tiny little thing on a tiny little speck of the universe, who is going to live for a very short period of time, and therefore it should put things into perspective, that is a way to achieve or to practice the transcendence…
SD: Let’s change gears for a moment and talk about the young generations that we have now, entering humanity, you know, they have a phrase called “virtue signaling”, which kind of gives virtue a negative stigma there, but it does show that there’s something behind the curtain, virtue is something that still has a value, and I think that surveys are showing that the Millennials, for example, want to be virtuous in terms of improving society, and Gen Z wants to find purpose at work, so I’m wondering how do you think the younger generations can apply the virtues, and what about future generations where they have an increasingly chaotic life?
MP: I have a daughter who is 26, almost 27, the current generation is going to have their hands full, going on the next decade, two three decades, moving forward, because we’re leaving a mess to them, from a number of perspectives, yes, they’ll need to be virtuous, that’s for sure. I think we live in an environment, in a moment, in which every new generation seems to be completely, or it’s characterized as being completely different from the old ones, and a totally different situation, and so who knows what they’re going to do. I don’t believe that for a second.
If there is anything that the Greco-Roman tradition teaches us, is that nothing has changed much over the last 2,000 years or so, when it comes to human nature, of course our technology is completely different, our science is completely different, our understanding of the world is completely different, but human nature itself, the kinds of things that people want or are afraid of, kinds of things that people go after, or try to stay away from, they’re not really that different, which is why of course Stoicism and other Greco-Roman philosophies, or for that matter, Buddhism and Taoism, and Eastern Traditions are still so relevant today, they wouldn’t be if they didn’t have [something] useful to us today, so just let’s do a little thought experiment, imagine all of a sudden, somebody else knocks at this zoom door, and [we] find that Socrates has joined us, so he’s back from 2,400 years ago, and he’s now here, having this conversation.
I bet that Socrates would be absolutely stunned by what we’re doing here, he would say wait a minute, you guys live hundred and sometimes thousands of miles away, and you can talk to each other, and just looking at each other on this thing, that you call the screen, he would be absolutely stunned, because this technology is beyond comprehension of an ancient Greco-Roman, but then he would settle down, because he’s Socrates, and he would still listen to what we’re talking about, and he would say, oh wait a minute, I have something to say here, because this is not new stuff, this is stuff that I’ve actually thought about quite a bit, this is stuff that I actually can contribute, and I think the same is true for a number of the ancient traditions, so when we talk about the new generations, I think there is a danger of over-emphasizing the differences and the novelties, and not paying enough attention to the fact that they’re human beings, they want to have the same kinds of things, not the specifics, you know, the specifics of what they want, but the general idea is going to be actually still very similar, so what I would say to the new generations, is that they should pay attention to what people have done before, not just the generation immediately before them, going back in time, because why would you want to reinvent the wheel, why would you want to start from scratch and try to figure out how to live a good life, and how to deal with other people, and so on and so forth, when there are time-tested methods and approaches to do so.
JB: I want to talk about how to actually, and you’ve already touched upon it with the three disciplines in the spiritual exercises, but how do we practice virtue in our daily lives, because that’s sometimes, people often ask me, how do you actually implement these things, and I would tell them, basically, it’s a moral compass, and I’ll measure my day against these, these four cardinal virtues, so how would you actually incorporate the two additional virtues into your practice, and in addition to that, which discipline would they fall under, so we have discipline of desire, action, and assent, I was just thinking about it, it probably fall under the discipline of action?
MP: I would agree, if we want to put it in the framework that Epictetus laid out, the three disciplines of desire and aversion on the one end, action and then ascent, I think, you’re right, that they would fall under action, especially humanity. Transcendence, it’s more of a kind of an attitude toward things, than anything else, but still, it would fall under action as well. So, let’s talk about practice, yes, the Greco-Romans, as you know, often made two analogies between what they were doing, practical philosophy, let’s call it practical philosophy, on the one hand, and medicine on the other hand, or athletics. The two kinds of comparisons that come more often, if you read Epictetus’s Discourses or Seneca’s Letters, or a lot of other stuff, or even Epicurus, the comparisons are always either with medicine or with athletics.
So in the case of medicine, for instance, the comparison is that if you want to live a healthy life, you ought to know certain things about what makes for a healthy, I’m talking biologically healthy, physically healthy life, for a human being, so you need to know things about a little bit about human metabolism and human physiology, you need to know that certain foods are nutritious and they’re good for you, and other stuff is junk and not good for you, and certain things will bring up your cholesterol and give you a heart attack, and other things on the other hand will actually be good for your heart, that sort of stuff, so you need a little bit of theory, and then the practice consists in living according as much as possible to that theory, so if you know that fried foods are not good for you, then don’t eat them, if you know that exercise on a regular basis is good for you, then get out of the house at least once a day and go for a long walk, or for a run or something like that, so that’s how you practice preventive medicine, similarly with athletics.
If you go to the gym, for instance, the first thing you want to know is some theory, you want somebody to explain to you, what exactly you’re supposed to be doing, you should be taking care of your muscles, well you need to know something about human muscles, otherwise you just go randomly, and you’re probably going to hurt yourself, if you want to improve your aerobic capacity, the same thing, you need to know something about sport physiology, then you want somebody who explains to you the basics of how you do these things, you know this is a machine that does this, these are weights that do these other things, and here’s how you properly use them, so that you’re not going to hurt yourself, you’re not going to injure yourself, and then what do you do?
You don’t just walk out of the gym and say, “well now I know, now I’m done”, [instead] you need to go to the gym every day, if possible or at least several times a week, and just sweat it out, you just practice, in the sense of putting in a routine, building a routine, that puts into practice those the theory that you learned, so it’s the same thing we’re told by Epictetus or Epicurus or Seneca, it’s the same thing for practical philosophy, that is why the theory is important, but by itself doesn’t do anything, if we were just spending tonight, an hour, an hour and a half, talking about the virtues and then, tomorrow morning, we resume our behavior as jerks, then this has done nothing, this is a complete waste of time, this is just the hair splitting or logic chopping or whatever you want to call it, and both Epictetus and Seneca are very clear, that this is not the way to do it…
SD: Let’s think historically for a moment. I was fascinated by the aspect of your article that linked the different traditions together in terms of their virtues, that they share these things, and one of the things that’s fascinated our group over time is connecting the dots, what are the underpinnings of these things, I wanted to get your opinion on that moment in time the Greco-Roman period, Stoicism started about 300 BC, Daoism is supposedly 400 BC, Buddhism started about 500 BC, what was happening at that time in history that caused such profound ideas to be born?
MP: That is a very good question, and there is a lot of controversial research about that, because people have noticed that all of a sudden, across the planet, or at the very least across Eurasia, things started happening there, all of a sudden you have the origin of what we call philosophy, pretty much simultaneously in India, in China, in the Mediterranean Basin, in the Middle East, and so on and forth, so it’s like, whoa, what was going on there?
And you know, it’s hard to tell, because … you mentioned specific traditions and the timings of those traditions, and they’re very close, they’re really close, I mean there is basically 200 years or less between Buddhism, Daoism, and the Pre-Socratics, … who are almost simultaneous with the Buddhists. Stoicism comes a little later, but the Pre-Socratic, which we think of as the initiators of the western philosophical tradition, are a couple of centuries earlier, so they’re about the same time as the Buddhists. Now, one possibility is that there was cross-cultural fertilization going on, we do know that there were more extensive communications, there was more extensive contacts than we tend to believe, among some of these cultures, Alexander the Great went to India, and he had Pyrrho with him, one of the Hellenistic philosophers, the founder of Pyrrhonian skepticism, and he wasn’t even the only one, he had several other philosophers, and we know that Pyrrho met a weird-looking group of people, from the Greek perspective, called the gymnosophists, literally means naked wise men, and people have suggested that the gymnosophists were actually early Buddhists…
I’m not an expert on Buddhism, but my understanding is that the Buddhist tradition started to be written down only several centuries later, so we don’t have any written testimony of early Buddhism, there’s an oral tradition and then you can have a whole interesting discussion of how reliable the oral tradition is, in general, but it’s probably more reliable than most people think, but nevertheless there was no writing, so we don’t know for sure what the early Buddhists were actually thinking or saying, could it be that Pyrrho was influenced by the Buddhists? Yes, there’s one interesting, fascinating, but rather controversial book, called “Greek Buddha” that suggests exactly that possibility, that Pyrrho came back to Greece and that some of the ideas that we attribute to Pyrrhonism actually come from the early Buddhists, of course, it could have gone the other way around as well, since we don’t know what the early Buddhists were actually thinking, it’s very possible that Pyrrho influenced the early Buddhists, and more likely than not, since we know that cultural influences tend to go both ways, more likely than not, it was kind of a two-way exchange.
Not only that, the Greeks and the Romans knew of places beyond India as well, they knew of the existence of China, for instance, and in fact, there was trade between those regions. We have archaeological evidence of Roman coins found in China, so we know that some Romans made it all the way out to China, way before Marco Polo, …
JB: I want to come back to the two additional virtues that we’re proposing here, humanity and transcendence, because I think that this is such an important time to introduce these concepts, in particular, they really focus on the idea of building community, and how we interact with one another, and in a time where there’s a lot of loneliness, a lot of people are feel socially isolated, that this is something that can be beneficial to Stoicism going forward, and creating communities, but also seeing our role as human beings in the community, and how we can start to regularly think about reaching out and helping those that are in need, so [can you] comment on the idea of how it talks about a sense of our obligations to each other, but also how it can facilitate building communities overall?
MP: That’s a great point to make, we do live in, as they say, interesting times, which may or may not be a blessing, but we do live in a situation where on the one hand technology makes it more and more possible to connect with, I mean look at us, look at what’s happening [on this zoom call], normally, without this kind of technology, the only way for us to have this kind of conversation, was if we were all living either in New York City or in Florida, or whatever, so the technology is making it possible as never before, to connect with other people in a meaningful way.
Unfortunately, as you also know very well, the overwhelming majority of usage of social technologies tends to be destructive, you find a lot of bullying, you find a lot of fake news, … so just leave it to human beings to create a wonderful instrument and then completely waste its potential, of course the Stoics would say, it’s up to you how you use it, other people will make their judgments and arrive their conclusions, but if you do have the technology, you use it for whatever is good for you and make sense to you, and that is what we’re doing tonight, so the technology is there, and it is making possible for us to think in a more cosmopolitan fashion, to participate in a forum, where there’s more diversity, more than your circle of acquaintances, which may or may not represent the world at large. The second factor that I think makes the concept of humanity, but also the concept of transcendence I think crucial, is the big elephant in the room, I know this there’s still a good portion of the American public who doesn’t believe it, but we are experiencing dramatic climate change, and that means that the problems that we’re facing and the problem that we’re facing right now, especially what the next generation or two are going to face, are obviously global.
This isn’t a matter of, you know, we can stay in our little enclave and solve our little problems on our own, this is a global issue, this is something that is not going to be improved, or it’s not going to be dealt with unless we think globally, really think globally, and that means both cosmopolitanism, caring about people on the other side of the world, and transcendence, thinking about not just ourselves but beyond even the human, we are destroying ecosystems, we are causing the extinction of countless species, we basically, [in] this human Anthropocene, as it’s sometimes called, the current era of human action on the globe, is at this point, being responsible for a number of extinctions…
SD: Before we wrap up, Massimo, can you tell us about where we can find you on the web, where’s all your activity going on, and do you have an upcoming book you’d like to promote?
MP: I always have an upcoming book, but it’s a little too early, because I’m writing it now. So your first question, where people find me right, I’m not on most social media, I decided that on balance the standard social media are not good for the cosmopolis, and so I decided not to take part anymore, so you will not find me on Facebook or Twitter / X, whatever it’s called these days, however most of my writings, a lot of my writings are now published on SubStack, so if people want to find me on SubStack, the title of my newsletter is “Figs in Winter”, which Stoic practitioners should recognize as a reference to a bit of the Discourses… [also] I have a comprehensive website that is called MassimoPigliucci.org … and there, you’ll find links to all my books, the podcasts, the videos, the essays, everything.
I am actually co-authoring a book with my friend Greg Lopez and another friend Merith Kunz, who is sometimes known as the Stoic Mom, … the three of us are writing a book of practical Hellenistic philosophy, the provisional title is Beyond Stoicism, … essentially the idea is to take a look at a number of Hellenistic philosophies, I think we have nine, we’re thinking about a tenth one, and for each one of them, we go and look at one fundamental idea, and how to practice it. So, for instance, there’s a chapter in Stoicism, of course, and the fundamental idea is Epictetus’s fundamental rule of life, the dichotomy of control, some things are up to us, other things are not, … how to actually put it into practice, how do you actually practice that thing, then we look at Epicurus, we look at the two schools of Skeptics, both the Pyrrhonists, at the Academic Skeptics, we look at the Cynics, and several others, as I said we’re thinking now, we’re almost done with the book, it should be coming out hopefully by the end of 2024
SD: Thank you so much Massimo, this has been enlightening, and I do mean that literally, lot of great things you covered, also thank you Joe for helping with the questions. For those who may be watching this afterwards on YouTube, you can post some comments, what you think about what we covered in this dialogue tonight, and how philosophy affects your life.
An Interview with Gregory Lopez
This interview is with Gregory Lopez, who founded the New York City Stoics in 2013, and is a co-founder and board member of The Stoic Fellowship, co-facilitator of Stoic Camp NY, co-author of A Handbook for New Stoics, and a Modern Stoicism team member. You can learn more about him at: https://greglopez.me/
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
GL = Greg Lopez
SD: Thanks for your contribution to the Modern Stoicism movement, Greg! I’m interested to know when you began to follow Stoicism and how you keep it interesting in your NYC Stoics group? This is a key question, because your group is one of the established ones and other Stoa leaders around the world can learn from your meeting format or some creative device.
GL: I first became interested in Stoicism through its connection with Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, one of the first forms of cognitive-behavioral therapy. Over a decade ago, I started volunteering for, and ultimately became president of an organization that teaches techniques from one of the first forms of cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) — Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT). There, I learned that Stoicism heavily influenced REBT and CBT, and became interested in learning more about it. After some more exploration, I found out that people were looking to practice Stoicism in the modern world, such as The New Stoa and The International Stoic Forum. While I found these groups edifying and interesting, I had more of an interest in learning and talking with other aspiring Stoics in person, which led me to start the NYC Stoics.
In terms of keeping things interesting, I follow the main advice I give to others looking to start their own stoas by doing what I’m interested in. I’m not particularly motivated to grow my group or be a Stoic evangelist, since I don’t think Stoicism is for everyone — remember, even Epictetus told his students that most of them were probably Epicureans at heart! Focusing on what I’m interested in has two benefits: it helps me find people who are interested in the same aspects of Stoicism that I am, and it keeps me motivated to continue facilitating the group.
The main thing I’ve been interested in doing is deep reads of Stoic and Stoicism-adjacent texts. Thus, NYC Stoics has primarily functioned as a 10-year long reading group… and — with one exception — we haven’t had any repeats yet! To give some coherence, I started introducing yearly themes. 2023’s theme is ancient alternatives to Stoicism. The reading groups used to be in person, but I took them online for COVID and have kept them online since the group has attracted people internationally.
In the past, I’ve also run dedicated practice groups using a few different formats. The common thread between the formats was that they required repeated attendance, since I don’t think dabbling in Stoic practice will get someone very far. Those practice groups are on hold for now, but I am leaning toward starting them up again in 2024.
In lieu of the practice group, I currently hold in-person, beginner-friendly meetups in New York City, where we casually discuss anything related to Stoicism along with doing a deep reading of a section of the Enchiridion. I find in-person socialization and discussion to be better than online discussions, which get unwieldy when there are more than a few people present.
SD: As the Modern Stoicism movement matures, I’ve noticed many people compare its wisdom to Buddhism and Psychology. Donald Robertson has said the early Stoics were excellent students of human behaviors and the early Psychologists. How do you view Buddhism and Psychology in comparison to Stoicism?
GL: Both are quite big topics, so I’ll have to paint with a very broad brush!
Psychology differs from traditional Buddhism and Stoicism in that it (ideally) uses scientific methodologies to probe the human mind. In doing so, it’s more a descriptive project than a normative one. Of course, treatments for psychological maladies can and do come out of the psychological enterprise and are put to the test in the subfield of clinical psychology. However, application is not psychology’s only goal. Psychology as a field could exist in theory without ever being applied to the clinic, since at its core, it’s an empirical study of the mind.
On the other hand, both Buddhism and Stoicism are not sciences, but philosophies of life. Philosophies of life differ from psychology because they’re normative: they tell you what to do, what to value, and how to live if you want to achieve a certain outcome. For Buddhism, that outcome is nirvana (the extinguishment of greed, hatred, and delusion to end suffering). For Stoicism, it’s a smooth-flowing life in accordance with nature which is equivalent with eudaimonia (often translated as “happiness” or “flourishing”, but I prefer thinking of it as a worthwhile life; one can live a worthwhile life without feeling happy or meeting societal norms that people would label as “flourishing”). Clinical psychology may also have such norms, but those norms have a different goal: to treat things that are labelled as mental disorders. Buddhism and Stoicism were not designed for this. While I’m not fan of Freud, a quote from him is still apt to compare the three: I think the goal of clinical psychology is to transform mental illness (or in Freud’s outdated terms, “hysterical misery”) into “common unhappiness”, while life philosophies’ goal is to transform “common unhappiness” into a good life.
However, Buddhism and Stoicism have somewhat different pictures of what a “good life” is. At a very high level, they may have some similarities, but they differ greatly in the details. Early Buddhism suggested that an ideal gradual path of training led one to withdraw from society to become a wandering ascetic in order to escape the hustle and bustle of the householders’ world in order to train the mind. This seems a bit more like Epicureanism than Stoicism, which more often involves throwing oneself into the world and training with the difficulties there. These are quite different modes of living and training!
I know I’m brushing over the layperson’s practice in early and modern Buddhism as well as Buddhism’s long history involving the bodhisattva ideal and Buddhism’s evolution into Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc. But my interest lies primarily with early Buddhism, and this is an interview, not a thesis, so please forgive me for stopping here! :)
SD: In a presentation in the past few years, I believe you spoke about the importance of Epictetus and his discipline of action. How can we use this to become better Stoics?
GL: The discipline of action is the second phase in Epictetus’ sequential, three-phase training program. So, if you’re skipping this, you’re cutting Stoic practice short.
A lot of people take all of Stoicism to be mostly the first discipline, which Pierre Hadot called “the discipline of desire”. The goal of that phase of training is to suppress all desires as much as possible, including the things that are “up to us”. In other words, including wanting to be virtuous. Epictetus lays out his reasoning for this quite clearly in Enchiridion 2.2: “ if you desire any of the things that are not within our power, you’re bound to be unfortunate, while those that are within our power, which it would be right for you to desire, aren’t yet within your reach.”
A lot of people focus on the first aspect of the quote. But relatively few catch the second part: that for someone who’s in the first phase of training — who hasn’t really tempered their desires and thus gets caught up in the throes of passion frequently — is not yet ready to desire what’s “within your power” or what is really “up to us”: to be a good person.
A lot of people come to Stoicism because they want to suppress desires in order to be resilient or to get rid of negative emotions: in other words, to feel better. But that’s not what Stoicism’s about. The goal of tempering the passions is not to feel better but to be better. Getting a hold of the subset of emotions that the Stoics called the passions is a precondition for actualizing what “would be right for you to desire”: to be a better human being.
So I’d turn the question you asked on its head: the discipline of action doesn’t help us be better Stoics: it helps us be Stoic. Period. Full stop. If one simply focuses on Epictetus’ fork of what’s up to us and what’s not, Stoicism becomes more of a resiliency life hack than a philosophy to craft a worthwhile life.
SD: In 2021, Orlando Stoics reviewed The Handbook for New Stoics, which you authored with Massimo Pigliucci. We still have people referring to that book today, because of its impact on their Stoic practices. What was the inspiration for the 52 sections and the related worksheets? Do you have another book planned in this format?
GL: The inspiration was threefold. The first was that Massimo and I mined the ancient Stoic literature for exercises while running Stoic Camp NY. We had a big pile of exercises backed by (or inspired by) ancient Stoic quotes, but didn’t use them outside of our small in-person yearly meeting. The second was that we saw a gap in the modern Stoic literature: some books mentioned Stoic exercises, but no book focused exclusively on practice. Finally, we were aware of the utility of cognitive behavioral therapy workbooks as well as some of the scientific literature that suggested the bibliotherapy is roughly as good as in-person therapy. So we decided to collate some of the exercises we had on hand into a CBT-style workbook — a book that’s meant to be worked, not just read! — to fill a practical gap we perceived in the modern Stoic literature.
As for your second question: yes, we are! Me, Massimo, and Meredith Kunz just signed a contract to create a practical overview of more Greco-Roman philosophies (or at least aspects of them) in the spirit of A Handbook for New Stoics. If things go according to plan, we’ll be delivering the manuscript in the next 6 months or so.
SD: If I remember right, the modern movement started in 2012, so much has been developed in the decade since. Example: the Stoicon Women’s conference addresses the need for female voices in the movement. How do you see us reaching more women in our second decade?
GL: I’m afraid I don’t have much expertise in this area, so I can’t really answer the question directly or well. However, I can say one thing which I think is important for modern practicing Stoics to do: they can make the Stoi-sphere more welcoming to women by speaking out and fighting against misogynistic takes on Stoicism. There’s a mix of misunderstanding and selective understanding that paints Stoicism as a philosophy that teaches what I think is a toxic form of masculinity. And to try to be fair to those who hold such views: there is a bit of misogyny in some ancient texts, and there was tons of it in Greco-Roman society. However, there is also a lot of what could be considered proto-feminist thought in the Stoic literature as well. Not only that, but we shouldn’t confuse the cultural mores which the ancients were immersed in with necessary parts of the philosophy. Stoicism evolved over its ancient history. And it should continue to evolve in its modern history, too. And we can help make that happen.
SD: Some other areas in the movement are developing, too. Donald Robertson and John Sellars are creating new books and materials for young adults. Are you working on a project like this for young people or another group?
GL: We actually did try to go that route, but things didn’t work out. I’m glad Donald and John are picking it up, though! There’s been a pretty big demand for young adult materials. If there’s a demand from Stoic Fellowship members, perhaps we can work on something as well.
SD: In April 2023, we both attended the North American Stoic Summit (hosted by Brittany Polat and Phil Yanov). We had some time (with the speakers and some mutual friends) to discuss the future of Stoicism. I remember chatting with Ward Farnsworth about gamification. Can you think of a technology that might help improve our Stoic community worldwide?
GL: Tough question, since how technological innovation will unfold is a hard thing to predict. My off-the-cuff, low-confidence answer about future tech is that I suspect graded exposure through VR could be useful under controlled circumstances — it can be used as a form of premeditatio malorum. AI chatbots may also prove useful as long as they’re trained on the appropriate data and don’t hallucinate (I’ve had Chat GPT literally make up a Seneca quote once!).
In terms of current technology that’s ready for prime time now, I use an app called Universe to assist in “view from above”-style exercises. And I think the good ol’ world-wide web has helped bring Stoics together from all over the world!
SD: Thanks so much for your time today. My last question: do you have a favorite ancient or modern Stoic, such as Seneca or Nancy Sherman? I’ve found Seneca’s perceptive nature in “On Anger” is amazing, plus Sherman’s presentation helps keep us tranquil in “Stoic Wisdom”.
GL: I actually don’t. I try to take the approach Marcus takes in Book I of the Meditations, where I look for the good in the ancient Stoics as well as modern people, whether they’re Stoic or not.
Highlights from the Stoic Summit
The Stoic Fellowship is happy to offer these highlights from the North American Stoic Summit 4–01–2023 in Tampa, Florida. The event was organized by Brittany Polat and Phil Yanov. It was the first international meeting of Stoics in-person since the start of the pandemic, featuring notable speakers like Bill Irvine and Ward Farnsworth. These highlights were collected by StoicDan of the Orlando Stoics.
Bill Irvine, who’s the author of popular books “A Guide to the Good Life” and “The Stoic Challenge” was the first speaker on a cool, quiet Saturday morning. He emphasized that you should live each day fully, because your vision might fail or some other disability could happen. Also, realize that you live in relative peace, and we should enjoy that, because peace could end on any day. The speaker’s metaphor, which resonated with the audience was “your last time.” He was referring to the next time you play basketball or any activity, remember it could be your last. We must have gratitude for these moments in life.
StoicDan relates this to the famous stories of Roman generals, when returning from victorious battles, they had festivals waiting to honor them. A slave would stand behind them in the chariot and whisper in their ears: “memento mori.” In other words, be humble and remember that you are mortal.
Leonidas Konstantakos spoke about the popular Stoic topic of cosmopolitanism. He suggested that justice is a character trait, and this is based on our obligations to others around us. He also related this to the Circles of Hierocles. He added that we can reach out to the outer circles by bringing people closer to us!
StoicDan adds: Hierocles was a second century (CE) Stoic philosopher, who created the idea of what we call today the “Circles of Hierocles”. It’s a series of concentric circles, and the smallest one in the center represents you. Then, moving outward is your family and extended family, then your local community, then your town, then your country, and then all of humanity. Using the concept of oikeiôsis, we should have concern for those around us, starting with the circles near us, and then adding people in the circles further away.
Jennifer Baker, a Professor of Philosophy, was the third speaker. Her area of interest is virtue ethics, and she has authored / edited many books on the subject. One of her observations is how we need to prepare ourselves for online life in modern society. We should say to ourselves the quote from Seneca, “the wise man knows that all things are in store for me.” This leads to the role (the need) of practical rationality. We must recognize that our behaviors online (whether it’s under our name or done anonymously) affect other people and also affect ourselves! Baker said if we are acting inappropriately online, we might trust ourselves less in real life.
StoicDan later spoke to the presenter and commented how valuable this concept is. In modern Psychology, a similar concept is about self-trust being based on your feelings of integrity, and if one lacks integrity, then your identity feels less confident and lacks focus in your mission / purpose. A lack of integrity can also send a person to a dark spiral of vices.
Karen Duffy was the next speaker. Her latest book is called “Wise Up!” and was included in Oprah’s 50 Most Anticipated Books for 2022. Duffy suffers from chronic pain, where even small sensations like a light breeze can cause great pain. However, she remains an optimist and uses many Stoic practices. After reading Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, her motto is “pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.” She feels that the writings of Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius bring their cumulative wisdom to life. She concluded her presentation with lines “we are in control of our thoughts” and Emerson’s quote “every day is beautiful.”
At Orlando Stoics, StoicDan has taught a similar line of reasoning over the years. Some of us have small pains, others chronic and extreme pain, but in all cases, realizing that we control our thoughts and impressions is a valuable step to keeping our focus and tranquility. In past lectures, Donald Robertson reminds us that medicine may be needed to reduce chronic pain (the extreme cases where Stoic help is limited). So, a complete understanding would be to start with Stoicism and consult a physician if needed.
Melinda Latour at Tufts University does research on music and Stoicism. We don’t hear about that every day! A song that she included in her presentation was “Qué será, será (Whatever Will Be Will Be)”. This famous song’s lyrics are a child asking a parent about their lives ahead, and the parent says “whatever will be will be, the future’s not ours to see, qué será será, what will be will be.” Latour suggests that listening to music can help us deal with loss and practice more self-control. She concluded her presentation with the idea that the scholars think the Stoics liked music, yet it was an indifferent. Music can be used for good or bad purposes, but there are cases where music teaches us maxims.
StoicDan agrees. In modern society, many items (the Internet, money, movies, etc.) are indifferents. They can be used to practice virtues or vices. We choose how to spend our time and energy. Further, we can follow Latour and learn from selected songs that echo Stoic practices. Check her web site for a list of the songs presented at the Summit. The audience made suggestions too: “My Way” by Frank Sinatra, “Sounds of Silence” by Paul Simon, “Hakuna Matata” from the Disney film “The Lion King”, “Live Like you were Dying” by Tim McGraw, “Let it Be” by The Beatles, and “Shake it Off” by Taylor Swift. This was a very revealing list of songs! The audience was impressed at their cumulative ideas. This can be a very engaging item to start a discussion for a Stoic group meeting.
Greg Lopez was the final speaker of the day. He’s the founder of the NYC Stoics and co-founder of The Stoic Fellowship. One of his themes was the “passions” and how Stoics handle them. Lopez quoted Arius Didymus, the Stoic philosopher from the first century (BCE), “every passion is violent, since those who are in a state of passion… are swept away by [its] vehemence, as though by some disobedient horse.”
StoicDan likes this metaphor of a horse, because it shows how anger can become like a wild animal. Donald Robertson, in one of his articles, described it clearly “Anger is ugly and, in a sense, unnatural, because, as though in a trance, we seem to abandon reason when we’re in the throes of rage. We’re thinking creatures and yet when anger takes control of us, we become mindless and stop thinking. We’re therefore less human when enraged — that’s what the Stoics found most unnatural about it. Anger, hatred, and the desire for revenge, potentially turn us into animals.”
We hope you enjoyed some highlights of the North America Stoic Summit 2023. If you’d like more information about the presenters included here, contact StoicDan. You can find him on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, or send an email to [email protected].
An Interview with Kevin Vost
The Stoic Fellowship is happy to offer this interview with Kevin Vost. He’s the author of the book “Memorize the Stoics!”, which is available for purchase on Amazon.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
KV = Kevin Vost
SD: Thanks for your time, Kevin! Help us learn from your Stoic life: how did you find Stoicism and what aspects keep you interested? This will help Stoa organizers around the world to keep members engaged in discussions.
KV: Thank you for the invitation, StoicDan! I found Stoicism in the early 1980s as a psychology undergraduate when I learned that founders of the early systems of cognitive psychotherapies Drs. Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis credited the Stoics in general, and Epictetus in particular, with the insight that we can greatly influence how we feel and behave by training ourselves to think properly about whatever difficulties or stressors we experience in life. What has kept me interested in Stoicism for 40 years now is not only its power for helping control negative emotions, but its call to us to grow in virtue to be nobler, more caring people, focused not only on our own tranquility and happiness but on benefiting others.
SD: You recently published a book “Memorize the Stoics!” I liked how you modernized the teachings of Epictetus, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius. Your introduction starts with ideas like self-control (to overcome desires) and endurance (to overcome hardship). What are the major problems, in your opinion, that the modern world gives us and how can Stoicism help?
KV: Very good question. There were all kinds of temptations and life difficulties in the time of those Stoics two millennia ago that are still with us today, but the modern world has certainly added some powerful new ones as well.
In terms of challenges to self-control, through electronic media, we now have all kinds of temptations, titillations, and diversions available to us 24–7 that the ancient Stoics never had to face. It can be hard to focus on what is truly important, to be able to sit and calmly read for considerable lengths of time, and perhaps to leisurely spend time with, relax, and listen to relatives and friends, if we constantly feel the urge to check our phones, social media, or a universe of web sites. In this regard, I was greatly impacted in my early 40s (20 years ago), by a line in Seneca’s On the Shortness of Life that was translated like this in the Loeb edition: “The busy man is least busy with living.” In other words, as Socrates said, “The unexamined life is not worth living.” When we are constantly on the move with too little time to think and reflect, life speeds past us and we might regret someday that we did not slow down to consider what actions were truly most worthy of our time. In my own case, after reading that at a very busy time of life when I was working full-time, had a young family, and did part-time college teaching, I stopped teaching to reflect more and to read good philosophy like that of the Stoics and Aristotle. Within a year, I ended up writing the first or more than two dozen books. So, in general, I think the Stoics can help us slow down and focus on what is truly important in life.
In terms of facing up to difficulties, the lessons of the Stoics can help us calmly face all sorts of difficulties in modern life from a fender-bender on the road, to personal illness, to loss of a loved one. While each of us may or may not experience such difficulties at various time, I think one problem most of us can probably relate to is what seems to me to be increasing polarization regarding issues like politics, economic, religion, sexuality and more, with tendencies toward demonizing or trying to stifle the voices of people with opinions differing from one’s own. I think the Stoics can be very helpful here in helping us call to mind the humanity we all share in common, regardless of our specific beliefs. I think Marcus Aurelius is particularly helpful when he reminds us that people who disagree with us or might tend to annoy us in a variety of ways think and act the way they do because it makes sense to them within their perspective. If they are willing to reason with us, we might find common ground with them, and even if not, we will feel no need to hate or vilify them. In other words, I think Stoicism can help lead to a calmer, more truly tolerant world.
SD: Your book mentions Dr. Albert Ellis many times. Lately, we’ve been talking about him in the Monday night meetings of Orlando Stoics. How do you view his contributions to psychotherapy and how do you link it to Stoicism?
KV: In one semester as a psychology undergraduate, I first became immersed in cognitive psychotherapies writing a paper for an Abnormal Psych course on Aaron Beck’s cognitive therapy for depression and another for a Clinical Psych course on Albert Ellis’s Rational-Emotive Therapy. I read every book and article I could get my hands on about Ellis’s system (now called Rational-Emotive Behavior Therapy or REBT), back in the day before computer-assisted searches. I even tracked down amusing Rational-Emotive songs he wrote and sung to get clients to laugh about their irrational, self-upsetting tendencies. I was intrigued and amused by Ellis as a person too. Though I was a rather reserved person myself, I really admired his bluntness and sense of humor. I also thought his perspective on mental health made more sense than any other of the approaches I’d encountered. He wrote about how when working as a psychoanalyst, sitting behind people on a couch, taking notes on their mental meanderings, he felt he should turn them around, sit them up, and carry on rational conversation with them, which, of course, he would go on to do. He reasoned that if a person is disturbed today, by some even deep in their past, what that person tells him- or herself about that experience today is what is perpetuating their disturbance.
Ellis’s work was also personally very helpful to me. For one example, recent data shows about 77% of people report they have a fear of public speaking. When I was young my fear of public speaking was severe. Of a naturally ruddy complexion and shy temperament, I would blush scarlet red and feel my heart begin to pound as beads of sweat would form even at the thought of having to speak before others, usually in a class at school. Not meaning to be uncharitable, if a teacher assigned some kind of speech at the end of a course, I would wonder about the odds that he or she might get ill by the end of the term so I would be off the hook. Later, people who knew me well were astounded that I would go on to teach dozens of college courses and to give many dozens of public talks fearlessly without a written note. So how did this come to be?
Well, in my senior year of college, I was required to give a talk in front of one of my psychology classes. Fortunately, I’d been studying techniques of cognitive therapy that can help us overcome negative emotions, including exaggerated fears. One technique has been called “negative visualization” by modern psychologists and “premeditatio malorum” by the ancient Stoics. Here, you basically imagine the worst possible outcome of an upcoming situation you fear and train yourself to remain calm about it. Borrowing from the something I read in one of Ellis’s books, before I gave the talk I thought to myself something like this: “Suppose I get up there and turn red as a tomato, my voice falters, I crack a joke and nobody laughs, forget what I want to say next, accidentally spit on the people in the front row, and then look down to see that my shoes don’t match and my zipper is open. Well, I might well be the worst public speaker in the world, but I suppose somebody has to be — so it might as well be me! I still have to do this talk to get my grade, so full steam ahead anyway!”
There is a second technique I used as I actually began the talk. It too has a name in modern cognitive therapy, namely “shame-attacking exercises,” with roots in ancient Stoic philosophy. Modern psychologist Albert Ellis, treating patients in New York City, would advise people fearful of what others thought of them to go out and do things like walking a banana on a leash like a dog or standing backwards in a crowded elevator, so they would see that even if people did notice them and think them odd, it’s not a devastating thing. An ancient form of this method was used on Zeno of Citium, our founding Stoic, by his teacher Crates. Crates realized that Zeno was too shy and concerned with what others thought about him, so he had him join him on a jaunt around Athens while carrying a huge crock of lentil soup. Zeno tried to hide the crock with his cloak out of embarrassment when some people walked by, so Crates took his staff and smashed open the crock, spilling bean soup all over Zeno’s legs. When young Zeno ran off in shame, Crates called out, “Why run away, my little Phoenician…nothing terrible has befallen you.”
So here’s what I did to attack my own shame when I had to give that talk. I brought no banana or lentil soup, but I merely apologized in advance to the class if they could see me flush and sweat and hear my heart pounding within my chest as I gave the talk. In essence, I made my fear that people would notice the physical signs of my extreme nervousness come true, and then I got on with the talk with a lot less redness, sweat, and tachycardia than ever before. To this day, I can give talks without any excessive jitters.
I fondly recall one time in the late 1990s or early 2000s when I got a chance to meet Ellis. A co-worker working on a master’s in psychology told me one afternoon the Ellis was speaking at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois (about 75 miles from our home in Springfield). By the time we got there the bad news was that no seats were left in the auditorium. The good news was that Ellis said he was willing to allow people to come sit by him on the edge of the low stage where he spoke, so my friend and I got to sit at the feet of the master. When I told my wife when we got home, she chuckled and asked if I’d kissed him.
Anyway, I later obtained master’s and doctoral degrees in general and in clinical psychology, and I continue to believe Ellis made profound contributions to psychotherapy. I am also thankful that he guided me and so many others to the philosophy of the Stoics.
SD: The impressive concept of this book is how it teaches using hand-drawn images, such as a room with furniture, doors, and other items. Each item is linked to one of the Stoic teachings, and together, they become a memory device. If you remember the image, then you can remember the Stoic teachings! I applaud how much work you put into creating these images! How are readers reacting to them?
KV: Thanks for the kind words. The response, so far, has been pretty good. All ratings on Amazon so far have been four or five stars. An earlier version of the method was used in a book I wrote in 2006 called Memorize the Faith! about catechetical information and it remains my best seller to date. I thought about a Memorize Epictetus! book back in 2006, but got busy with others projects and did three other memory books for Catholic publishers before I determined that the time had come to apply the memory methods to Stoic materials. The goal is for the method to be practically helpful, and hopefully an entertaining challenge along the way. The memory method itself goes back to Simonides of Ceos, who lived before the founding of Stoicism and it came down to the west primarily through Marcus Tullius Cicero of the first century BC. Interestingly, Cicero is one of our best outside sources for the teachings of Stoicism as well. Also, for this book my daughter-in-law did the drawings, and it was dedicated to my brother and grandsons, so it made it especially meaningful for our family. It was also a treat for me that we crafted one illustrated “memory room” as a stylized version of the original Stoa Poikile itself. I happened to have seen your video of a tour of the site of the real original Stoa and directed readers to it on YouTube!
SD: About half way in the book, you mention Epictetus and the Olympic Games (page 100). You emphasize how Epictetus wanted us to use philosophy in a practical way, in other words, to directly improve our lives (not just think about improving our lives!). Here, you write “We have studied and memorized so many important Stoic lessons by now, and the worst time to begin
to put them into practice is tomorrow…” How does your book help us stop procrastinating?
KV: Well, I hope it can. The idea draws largely from Epictetus’ brief Handbook in which he advises us to “remember” or “call to mind” various Stoic principles about a dozen times. Hopefully, if we can hold on to at least some of the key ideas of the 53 lessons of the Handbook, the first 50 of Seneca’s Letters, and what I called a “magnificent seven” maxims of Marcus Aurelius, when faced with temptations or difficulties in life, we can call forth what we’ve memorized and try to put it into practice right then. When I was young, I recall reading a motivational writer, I believe it was W. Clement Stone, who advised that when we realize we need to do something we should say to ourselves “Do it now!” and always immediately follow through on what we told ourselves to do! Here is my summary of Epictetus’ 10th Handbook chapter that I think encapsulates this idea: “Whenever something happens to you, remember to ask yourself what powers you have for dealing with it. If you see a beautiful body, call forth your self-control. If hardship comes your way, get out your endurance. If you are insulted, find your patience. If you train yourself in this every day, appearances will not carry you away.” We might add, “and do it now!”
SD: Your book also develops a series of maxims by Marcus Aurelius, and you refer to the scholarly work “The Inner Citadel” by Pierre Hadot. This book has helped many adults understand the value of Marcus and his teachings. However, in reaching young people with Stoicism, I’ve found they identify with Marcus specifically. Have you seen this trend? What do you think fascinates young people with Marcus?
KV: I have found this trend with people of all ages, including my younger, little brother (who just turned 60). I think Aurelius appeals to the young and to adults because by his life he so directly counters the common stereotype that people who love philosophy are impractical people with their head in the clouds (as Aristophanes so amusingly parodied millennia ago). Who could possibly have to face more real-world practical challenges than the leader of the greatest empire on earth at that time? Emperor Aurelius also provides a beautiful exception to the idea that power necessarily corrupts people’s morals. It is amazing to read the humble reflections of the most powerful man in the world, leader of Rome’s great legions, chiding himself not to become puffed up and act like a “Caesar,” though his awe-inspiring official title was indeed “Imperator Caesar Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus.” He exudes gratitude to others and reminds himself not to get upset if someone accidentally injures him when sparring, and not to get upset with the most annoying, nosey, unneighborly of people, by reminding himself that their actions make sense to them, and that we are here on earth to cooperate with one another. I think his nobility, integrity, and humility really appeal to young people inspired with idealism to become the best people they can become. This I think explains the appeal of recent of books about Aurelius like Ryan Holiday’s The Boy Who Would be King and Donald Robertson’s graphic novel Verissimus.
SD: Which Stoic annual conferences do you enjoy and what topics are they advancing?
KV: I spoke at my first live Stoic conference at Stoicon X Milwaukee in 2019, (it’s up on YouTube) not long before the pandemic hit. Since then, I’ve made virtual contributions to Stoicons, most notably on a panel for the big international Stoicon in 2021 and again on a panel of authors in 2022. I really enjoy these. I hope more live events will be forthcoming, and I find great value in the virtual events too. I try to watch them all day if possible. It is amazing to see how Stoic ideas are helping people in so many ways today and I particularly enjoy hearing people’s personal stories. It seems like a recurring theme in recent years is how Stoicism is focused not only upon one’s self, but upon others around us, all citizens of the world, and upon the cosmos itself.
SD: Thanks so much for your time today. I’ve saved the difficult question for last(!). When your book reviewed the teachings of Marcus Aurelius, you list the major themes in his book “Meditations” (page 177). One theme is “Rising to the Work of a Human Being.” In the last few years, we’ve seen people struggle with careers and finding purpose in life, while at the same time, also struggling with the pandemic and its stresses. So, my final question is: how can people break-free from the hindrances of modern life and find purpose using Stoicism?
KV: This is a particularly interesting question to me, since I officially “retired” from 32 years of full-time work in the disability evaluation field back in 2016, years before the pandemic. Now, my own “work as a human being” mostly involves writing books and articles, which I can do on my own time schedule. I’ve seen how the pandemic has affected the work habits and situations of family members and friends in a variety of ways, from those who no longer work, to many who now work remotely from home, at least a good portion of the time. Regardless of one’s employment situation, I do believe Stoic principles can help virtually every person rise to their “work,” even if it involves not wage-earning, but proper management of their household, property, and care for family, friends, and community. Aurelius writes nobly about performing our duties to our fellow person, and Epictetus writes again and again about performing our proper duties in life. Of course, Aurelius sat at the top of the pyramid in terms of employment. Nobody was his boss! And yet, what stresses he must have encountered.
Right before my Stoicon in Milwaukee in 2019, I’d been invited to give a talk at the national conference of Catholic Medical Association in Nashville, Tennessee. The theme that year was “medical burnout,” a growing problem among doctors and health-care professional at the time — months before we ever heard of COVID-19. It occurred to me that if anyone should have been stressed with job burnout it would be Marcus Aurelius, and indeed, in one part of my talk, I shared some of Aurelius’ lessons on coping with stress, particularly his statements at the start of Meditations, book 2, about how to talk to oneself first thing in the morning to prepare for the stresses of the upcoming day.
We can also glean plenty of insights on work from Epictetus, even in the brief Handbook. He essentially stresses the importance of giving our best to whatever work we do and not to be obsessed with obtaining higher positions that may not match our true abilities.
Seneca’s writings, several of his Letters, and his essay On Leisure might be particularly helpful for people who have retired or are not employed, perhaps due to disability, giving guidance on how to make the most of life and contribute the most to others.
Thanks again for giving me a chance to share in a few ways the Stoics have been such a boon to me for so many years. All the best to any who might read this.
An Interview with Dr. Kathryn Bucher and Todd Obenauer
The Stoic Fellowship is happy to offer this interview with Dr. Kathryn Bucher and Todd Obenauer. They run The Stoic Registry and in this interview, share insights on how Stoicism can appeal to new groups of the general population.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
KB = Kathryn Bucher
TO = Todd Obenauer
SD: When did the Stoic Registry start and what is its mission?
KB: The Stoic Registry was started by Erik Wiegardt, as stated up front on the website homepage: “The Stoic Registry is the oldest and the original Stoic community of the Internet, founded on the 8th of May, 1996. The purpose of the Registry is to bring together all those who are Stoics and who wish to be known by the commitment they have made.” -Erik Wiegardt
Erik envisioned a big tent, one that could gather up those who had shifted towards real practice of Stoicism and who saw themselves increasingly identified with this philosophy as a way of life.
He had felt quite alone in the world, with his own discovery and practice of Stoicism, not knowing if anyone else (with the exception of a few academics) had also found this philosophy so compelling. So, he started the Registry to start finding (as we now say) his ‘tribe’.
Part of the uniqueness of The Stoic Registry is that we encourage the personal and public act of declaring oneself Stoic. This is not to say that everyone has become a sage! But the act of declaration is an intentional step forward in one’s recognition and possibly commitment to continue to study and progress (becoming a prokopton) in the application of Stoic principles to one’s own life.
SD: Since you promote both Traditional and Modern Stoicism movements, how would you describe their appeal lately and to a general audience?
KB: The appeal, we hope, is that of being a pilgrim on a pathway to a different way of living in their own world, one that expands one’s ability to find joy, peace, wisdom, and ‘sense-making’. People are struggling to handle the seemingly endless obstacles and challenges in their lives, to live within the turmoil of a world that is increasingly chaotic and frightening. All Stoics find comfort and direction from the stirring words of Epictetus, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius.
Traditional Stoics are those who may want to learn about or incorporate the broader, metaphysical views of the ancient Stoic Philosophy, integrating Logic, Physics, and Ethics into a connected whole. Traditional Stoicism has a spiritual side to it, and one that explains the reason, alignment, and logic behind basic Stoic principles such as Virtue or Following Nature or Fate. This is the approach shared by the three of us who manage TheStoicRegistry.org but we realize that this isn’t the usual path for most beginning Stoic students. We refer those seeking more comprehensive depth in Stoic studies to the College of Stoic Philosophers.
For the ‘modern’ Stoic (let’s face it; we live in 2022, so we are ALL moderns), and that describes the vast majority of students who experience Stoicism through contemporary writers (Holiday, Pigliucci, Robertson, Irving, etc.), Medium essays, Reddit posts, and hundreds of blogs, we realize that there are lots of people at various stages of exposure and understanding about Stoic principles and practices. We are hoping to provide some structure and recommendations about ‘what’s next’ and ‘what do I want to know?’, to guide but not to push in any one pathway. Some want to be happy; some want to be more morally strong; some want to build a scaffolding of convictions to lean against; some want to connect with others on the path. This is our job - to gently suggest options.
SD: Kathryn, you want to introduce Stoicism to more women. How can we do that (including the Stoicon Women’s Conference).
KB: I recently beta-tested an 8-week Moodle-based course called “Stoicism Strengthens the Nurse’s Heart” with a dozen nurses, predominantly female. This course is expected to be posted for applicants in the new year. I also teach all day Stoicism and Nursing courses in person to hospitals and various webinars to nursing groups and faculty. My assumption is that both modern and traditional Stoicism has not appealed to women because of the reputation it has developed as being a way to ‘toughen’ oneself, to decry the value of emotions, and to generate a masculine image of ‘reason’ above all things. In fact, we must, as Brittany Polat is doing, refocus on the OTHER side of Stoicism, that is, by nature we are social beings and have a social responsibility for each other. Women are tough too, brave, just, self-mastered, and wise… but they must see how this fits with developing the strength of communities and families, as well as how to live lives that embrace the human experience in all its messiness.
SD: John Sellers and Donald Robertson are bringing Stoicism to young people (high school classes, a graphic novel). What do you think of these new areas?
TO: I love that we are aspiring to make Stoicism more approachable to others with examples like Donald Robertson’s Verissimus. I know I personally gained some new insights due to this type of communication alone. The fact that we are utilizing different types of venues & mediums to advance the ideas of becoming more cosmopolitan can only be a good action for the world.
KB: We talk often that the need for higher quality videos is paramount to attracting and informing a more diverse audience. Much of the stuff on YouTube isn’t all that inspiring.
SD: Todd, your profile talks of the importance of teachers & mentors. How can we use mentors to seek more virtue?
TO: We all know that we can “learn” a lot from books and online resources. However, quicker development and mastery helps when you can gain personalized and customized insights from teachers and mentors. I personally think that we can find mentors who can help us with gaining significant skills in practicing virtues regardless of their stance (or knowledge) on Stoicism. Identifying friends and acquaintances who consistently demonstrate at least a single virtue is actually fairly easy. Many of us know people who are strong with courage but may have an opportunity practicing modesty / temperance. Or are strong with justice but perhaps not as adept with practicing wisdom. How might we learn from these teachers on their area of strengths while avoiding emulating the areas of their opportunities?
I also understand that Ben Franklin kept a journal for each of the virtues he was focused upon practicing. How might we become more precise on our development of virtues by narrowing our lens of development… and again leverage mentors in the areas of their strengths.
SD: The scholars write and talk of cosmopolitanism much today. What practical steps can we use to include this in our Stoic practice?
KB: That is a great question. TheStoicRegistry.org prides itself on reaching and appealing to a large global audience; in fact, we have registered members from just about everywhere in the world. This makes us very mindful of our American biases and assumptions, of course, but also encourages us to reach out to the stories of our members more frequently. Our future plans include opening a blog, doing more interviews with members, and finding options for connecting people together.
As for me, a Veteran Peace Corps volunteer from the 1980s, the lessons that we are all the same and we are all vastly different, based on so many factors: cultural, genetic, age, environment, economic support, political frameworks, historical oppression, keeps bringing us back to the concept of ‘human nature’. Only the View from Above skips past all this reductionism and lets us remember that survival is everyone’s job. This global pandemic and environmental crisis is showing us the cosmic wisdom at play and we must help all of us through it by getting actively involved in change and not retreating into nationalism or even our own small local setting.
SD: Many of our readers are Stoa organizers around the world. What inspiring Stoic tips can you provide to engage Stoa members?
KB: First, we are not at odds with each other! The worst thing that could happen is that we polarize around our own take on Stoicism and that we dismiss one another as “OTHER” (ie. confused or deluded or commercial or misogynist or academics or whatever!). I get itchy when I feel the gulf between those finding joy in the traditional reading of Stoicism vs. those who prefer Stoicism from a secular perspective. We can be open to each other and learn, learn, learn.
Next, there is still so much room for us to find, teach, and support a massive number of people who have not ever studied any philosophy, much less Stoicism: and to share philosophy in the language and with the stories that relate. I know that teaching nurses about Dichotomy of Control required me to discuss it in terms of patient care situations they would normally encounter. This is the key: finding the language. Stoicism isn’t a dusty, theoretical, white man’s canon. It is a set of principles that can lift up the hearts and minds and resilience and determination of everyone.
SD: After 7 years at Orlando Stoics (started April 2015), we’ve found that a good “community building” aspect is starting each meeting with a dialogue and then offering time for open discussion. In the meetings you’ve attended, what aspects do you believe can promote “community building”?
KB: Frankly, getting to know one another helps. If Stoic discussion stays impersonal, it languishes.
Todd, Derrick, and I use MIRO to post up notes from our conversations and to assure we don’t forget something suggested for follow-up. Visual boards help a lot to have a big picture together.
Being clear that every member is at a different place on their Stoic journey.
Gifts work! What can I give you today that would help you feel included and cared for? These are small things, and can be the gift of a great quote or YouTube of a Mozart piece, but like all groups, we want to be acknowledged and appreciated.
Derrick is our scholar: he has read hundreds of books on Stoicism and can find the perfect reference for any purpose. Having someone learned on your group who will share their knowledge goes a long way towards a sense of intellectual progress!
Todd is a professional organizational facilitator; he has introduced us to the model of Ikigai, which says so much about personal and professional integration! Here is the model, which might be useful to some communities of individuals clarifying group and individual goals around Stoicism:
An Interview with Tim Iverson
The Stoic Fellowship is pleased to offer this interview with Tim Iverson of the Minnesota Stoics. He talks about organizing a Stoic discussion group and the wisdom in his new book. These ideas will help Stoa organizers around the world.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
TI = Tim Iverson
SD: You recently published a book “Advice for Every Hour”. It contains Stoic wisdom and many great ideas on mindfulness. The first chapter starts with a quote from Seneca, where he speaks of how much we need philosophy to solve issues in life. How do you think Stoicism can help people in the modern world?
TI: People are drawn to Stoicism because of its focus on ethics, or how to live a satisfying life. We all need guidance on how to handle day-to-day challenges that arise. For example, while philosophy can’t help you set up your wi-fi, it can help you cope with the emotional challenges that tech issues can bring on. The modern world is full of marvels and beauty, but also full of pain and challenge. Stoicism speaks to how we respond to these everyday stresses.
SD: We need your wisdom for the Stoic Fellowship and Stoa organizers around the world. What have you learned as an organizer at Minnesota Stoics? When did the group begin?
TI: The Minnesota Stoics began in 2015, and I joined as a facilitator around 2020. (There have also been others leading.) I’m now a co-facilitator with my friend Gabriel Blott. And like many groups, we went online during the pandemic.
I’ve benefited from observing different facilitators, and how they’ve led meetings (including the Orlando Stoics.) I see the hunger for rational conversation about how to live, and about some of the more “metaphysical” aspects of philosophy, i.e., questions about the universe, God, and the meaning of life. The miracle of online meetups is that people from every corner of the globe can now find a Stoic meeting, and connect with others with similar interests.
SD: In your book, I enjoyed reading your recollections of the TV show “Kung Fu” with characters Caine and Masters Po and Kan. What parts of Chinese philosophy do you link to Stoicism? Why is this link appealing to you?
TI: Chinese philosophy is a vast subject, but many have noticed the similarities between Buddhism and Stoic thought. I also think that Confucianism, with its sense of virtue and finding a place in the social fabric, has a lot in common with Stoicism.
The western tradition had the notion of “hic et nunc,” or here and now. In China, the Zen school of Buddhism (which is known as “Chan”) also emphasizes the importance of the here and now, or being in the moment. And this dovetails nicely with Stoic thought. In his Meditations, Marcus Aurelius says,
“Don’t let your imagination be crushed by life as a whole. Don’t try to picture everything bad that could possibly happen. Stick with the situation at hand, and ask, “Why is this so unbearable? Why can’t I endure it?” You’ll be embarrassed to answer. Then remind yourself that past and future have no power over you. Only the present — and even that can be minimized.” Meditations 8.36
This has a Zen-like feel to it. Also, both Chinese Taoists and Stoics posited a higher power, often referred to as Nature. It was the goal of both systems to find harmony with this energy. The Stoics called it, “living in agreement with nature.” Not always easy to understand, but a worthy goal.
SD: In meetings of the Minnesota Stoics, you’ve used quotes by ancient Stoics like Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius. Which of these authors resonate with your members?
TI: That’s hard to say. Right now, we have three studies going: one of Epictetus’s teachings (Enchiridion); another of the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius; and one more by a contemporary writer, Ward Farnsworth (The Practicing Stoic). I’m a huge fan of the clarity and breadth of Seneca, but I think we’re pretty equally split in our enjoyment of all three of these Stoics.
SD: Since you’re an experienced education (in the classroom), what teaching tips can you offer Stoa organizers around the world? I’m interested in how you apply your teaching experience to develop monthly meetings.
TI: For my teaching / facilitating, I mainly draw on two sources: my work as a public school teacher, and also from my training in mindfulness. While I was in public schools, I offered a program called, “Philosophy for Beginners” which I taught for nearly 20 years. It’s there that I honed my work with small groups, and I stressed allowing everyone to share their perspective on issues in a respectful way. From mindfulness I learned to offer brief pauses to relax and check in with the present moment. And from my general classroom, I did a lot with art images to facilitate discussion — again, stressing rational and respectful exchanges.
SD: Have you used resources from the Modern Stoicism movement to help develop the Minnesota Stoics? Any books in particular? Any other programs?
TI: The Modern Stoicism blog is excellent (modernstoicism.com), with a variety of topics and approaches presented. This year I also attended their online conference (as well as shared a brief video.) They are doing a lot to make Stoicism relevant and accessible for a modern audience. As for books, our group read Donald Robertson’s The Philosophy of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Robertson is one of the leading voices in the modern Stoicism movement, and is a trained therapist as well as writer. His book on Marcus Aurelius, How to Think Like a Roman Emperor, is also a great read, sure to be a classic.
I’ve also worked with Brittany Polat on a couple projects for her terrific site, Stoicare. Brittany’s work focuses on bringing compassion into the Stoic toolbox. And of course, I’ve attended many meetings of the wonderful Orlando Stoics. A very memorable time was our study of Massimo Pigliucci’s book, A Handbook for New Stoics, which took nearly a year! I would highly recommend it to anyone just starting on this path.
SD: I’m grateful for your help in developing “dialogues in philosophy” to open meetings at the Orlando Stoics. The members found these dialogues engaging. How can we use them and other presentation formats to increase engagement in the future on Zoom and in-person?
TI: The dialogues were fun and challenging. They pushed me to master the reading material in a deeper way and make connections to other ideas. I’ve also enjoyed watching the dialogues as a spectator, to see where they would go, what ideas would emerge.
Two thoughts come to mind. One, send out an anonymous survey (like Survey Monkey) of your group to get some feedback. They might have some interesting ideas. Second, contact a philosophy professor or high school teacher in your area to join you in one of the dialogues — they might help spread the word to their students and colleagues.
SD: At Stoicon 2021, my “lightning round” video spoke of why we need philosophy today — to strengthen our minds. Similarly, in your chapter “Skills for Civilization”, you suggested mindfulness in schools can help students with “self-awareness and self-regulation”. Much work to do! Our world has forces that are working in the opposite directions. How will we do it?
TI: This really is the ultimate question! What form will Stoicism ultimately take in society? Will we affect real change? How?
One way to think about it is this: Stoicism is about the formation of character, and less about changing outer conditions. Some may criticize this — and advocate for more social change. But as I see it, the focus on character — becoming more tranquil, rational, and kind — is social change. Change from the inside out.
Each of us must decide how we are going to carry out the mission to do good in the world. It may be on a small scale; it may be huge. We may vow to be a better parent or spouse. We could start a support group — or maybe organize a social movement. Many years ago, my wife organized a neighborhood group to clean up the water in a nearby reservoir. Every person has to look within, to their own Nature (Logos), to find an answer.
When I was in education, I participated in many programs to help young people, from a philosophy group to a schoolwide character-building program, to an after-school yoga class. I hope these programs planted positive seeds for the young people I worked with. To paraphrase the great Theodore Roosevelt, we all must do what we can, where we are, with the gifts that we have.
An Interview with Kathryn Koromilas
The Stoic Fellowship is happy to offer this interview with Kathryn Koromilas, who is a writer and educator who once lived in Preveza not far from ancient Nikopolis where Epictetus founded his philosophy school. She holds a Master of Philosophy in Creative Writing, leads The Stoic Salon, a group dedicated to writing and journaling with the Stoics, hosts The Stoic Salon Podcast, and co- organizes the Stoicon Women: Courageous Paths to Flourishing.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
KK = Kathryn Koromilas
SD: Great to have you with us, Kathryn. You’ve had a busy year in 2021, with your producing workshops, recording podcasts, and you were one of the organizers of the Stoicon-X Women’s Conference. What were the big takeaways from 2021? How is the Modern Stoicism movement progressing?
KK: Hi, Dan! Thank you for inviting me to this interview! It was indeed an excellent year in many ways. On a personal level, I had so many profound conversations with people about life and Stoicism and so, for me, the biggest takeaway was the connection and community.
From my perspective, the conversation in the Stoic community expanded and shifted in 2021.
We saw the first ever women’s conference, “Paths to Flourishing,” for one thing. We have Donald Robertson to thank for this, it was his idea and he encouraged Brittany Polat and me to take the lead and found a platform to showcase and celebrate women in Stoicism. Some people wondered why we even needed a women’s conference, but I say ‘Why not?’ If you invite different voices to the podium the conversation changes. We wanted the conversation to have a very practical focus but we didn’t expect how deeply personal the experience would be. And I mean this for men and women and everyone who attended. We also talked about topics we don’t normally talk about, like care and creativity.
I think that Eve Riches and Brittany Polat’s Stoicare initiative was and will be monumental. It seems to me that everyone is very excited about the emphasis on care and community which in the popular imagination seems to be at odds with Stoicism but which we know to be fundamental. And, of course, the books which made a similar shift towards emphasising social bonds, Stoic Wisdom by Nancy Sherman and Being Better: Stoicism for a World Worth Living In by Kai Whiting & Leonidas Konstantakos.
2021 was certainly a year of care and community.
SD: Journaling is one of the themes in your work. How does this help your students gain mindfulness or tranquility? And besides reaching Stoics around the world, are some of your other students Buddhists or from other belief systems?
KK: ‘Journaling with the Stoics’ is certainly an important part of my work but, these days, I don’t have students. I used to have students when I was teaching grammar and academic writing at universities and colleges. Nowadays, I am developing writing experiences for personal transformation and contemplation and, of course, I am on the same journey. So, I have co-learners and fellow explorers.
In terms of belief systems, I’m not sure. We haven’t had those conversations in The Stoic Salon. Apart from some discussions around what the Stoics mean when they say “gods” and “soul” we focus on the practice. And indeed throughout his Meditations, Marcus Aurelius writes that whatever the metaphysical reality (Gods or atoms) our focus ought to be on being good.
In terms of gaining tranquility, the key is to think about personal writing differently from what we do today. Today, we tend to see writing, even personal journal writing, as expressive writing. So what we do is express our thoughts and feelings about events on the blank page. We kind of immerse ourselves in ourselves as if everything revolves around us. And, then, the temptation is to keep filling those blank pages with personal thoughts and feelings and to ruminate. I talk about this in a short piece I published on Medium called How Stoic journaling stopped me overthinking.
This sort of exercise brings some catharsis and this is important. We want to be able to release our emotions and confusions safely onto the page; we don’t want to suppress our emotions. But because the feeling of catharsis is so relieving and satisfying, we tend to leave it there. We blurt everything out onto the page and then head back out into the world only to be confronted with more difficulties that continue to upset us and disturb our tranquility.
So we need to journal mindfully and to journal to come up with a plan for how to be an excellent human in any situation. Epictetus would tell his students to write down his teachings and to memorise them and keep them at hand so that we always have them, like a tool kit, when we head out into the world and when, as Pierre Hadot says, “an unexpected, and perhaps dramatic, circumstance occurs.”
SD: How did you initially discover philosophy? Was there a gateway book or author who inspired you to start learning in this area?
KK: I studied philosophy at the gorgeous University of Sydney. The Stoics weren’t taught on campus, I found out about them later. I studied Aristotle and Kant and Wittgenstein. Long before that, when I was a kid, my mum used to drive me to ballet school in the city and as we’d drive down City Road towards my class in Chinatown, I would look over the stone walls to the spires of the building and say, “That’s where I want to go when I grow up.”
All I knew about the University of Sydney was that learning took place there and I wanted to learn everything. I wanted knowledge.
At home, on the family bookcase, we had the Encyclopaedia Britannica, of course, this was the Seventies, and dad had invested in the Great Books of the Western World, which was a thing back then before Wikipedia. I would dip into those books as a child. The text was very small and the pages were very thin and I mostly just flipped the pages pretending to be a grown up scholar. There was one name I was particularly drawn to amongst all the others, and it was Galen, of all names! I didn’t know at the time because I was just flipping the pages and not really reading at all, that Galen was a critic of the Stoics. He thought the Stoics were wrong about where the ruling part of the psyche is located. The Stoics said it’s located in the heart; Galen argued it’s located in the brain. Don’t quote me on the specifics here, please see Christopher Gill’s article, “Galen and the Stoics: Mortal Enemies or Blood Brothers?” or even the Galen entry on Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
I think that’s so interesting though! Because after years and years of studying philosophy in an analytic way and thinking and overthinking everything in solitude, it was Stoicism that brought me back to my heart and opened me up as an essentially social creature. It is a heart-centred philosophy.
Anyway, that’s one story of why I studied philosophy! Another is that my English teacher at school told me that a friend of hers went to the University of Sydney to study philosophy and spent the first week on the steps of Wallace Theatre, crying. Wallace was where first years attended metaphysics lectures. When I heard this story, I knew I wanted to study philosophy. I wanted to study something so profound it could make me cry from awe. Actually, maybe this is the same story!
SD: In your workshops, which of the ancient Stoics do you quote often? Also, which of ancient figures do you think practiced journaling the best (Stoic or from another school)?
KK: I mostly use Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations for my “Meditations on ‘Meditations’” and my “28 Days of Joyful Death Writing.” I have also used Seneca and Arrian as models.
I like to call Arrian, ‘the transcriber.” Arrian is very interesting because as a student of Epictetus, Arrian would have been instructed to keep hypomnemata. These were notes to the self, notes made during and after Epictetus’s lectures. Epictetus would tell his students: “You need to keep these teachings πρόχειρα ἔστω (at hand) day and night. So, write them down…” Hence the Encheiridion, literally, “handbook.” The purpose of making notes was not to interpret or analyse or critique but to learn and memorise. So, Arrian was literally transcribing Epictetus and this is an act of listening and paying attention to the teacher/teachings without interjecting with opinion and analysis and judgement which I feel we do all the time today. You can do this yourself, by just sitting with any text and quietly copying out segments word for word to create your own handbook.
Marcus Aurelius heeds Epictetus’s advice too, I guess, and his Meditations is a collection of notes he’s rewritten from the Stoic teachings, Epictetus mostly. But while Arrian was transcribing so that he could offer an accurate account of Epictetus to other students, Marcus Aurelius was rewriting, reexpressing and reformulating the teachings. I call Marcus Aurelius, “the reformulator” because this is what he does in Meditations. Gregory Hays mentions this in his introduction to his translation. Marcus Aurelius reformulates the Stoic teachings, going over the same concerns. In The Stoic Salon, we do guided journaling activities based on this method.
I call Seneca “the reframer”, because he’s so excellent at reframing unhelpful thinking. There’s an excellent example of this in Letter №12 to Lucilius. The letter is ostensibly about old age but, for me, it’s a letter about anger management (and old age). And this is a great example to follow in our own writing. Here is how he stages this letter and we can use this as a model for our own writing: First, he describes that he visited his country home which is in a state of disrepair and gets very angry at the estate manager and everyone else on the property. He just lays out the facts and owns his angry reaction. Second, he takes a step back to examine the thinking behind his anger. He realises he isn’t angry at the crumbling old house but because the ageing house reflects his old age, he’s angry about being old. He was young when the house was built, so if the house is old now, so is he and this upsets him. Third, he proceeds to construct a helpful thesis about ageing.
SD: What books do you suggest for students of Stoicism today? They could be books you authored or those of your favorite authors?
KK: I have got so much more reading to do, so I would love some recommendations, too! I promised Eve Riches I’d read Cicero, and Jennifer Baker I’d read Julia Annas.
I always think it’s important to start with the original texts. That’s a bit awkward because we don’t all read Greek or Latin but there are translations and there’s a translation that will appeal to everyone. Most of the free translations online are old and sound archaic, but they can be fun and very interesting to read too. Be aware of the translation you choose. Consider the year it was translated and who translated it because the culture of the time and the translator’s beliefs will influence words and phrases chosen which can sometimes put you off, especially if those words trigger negative reactions for you. For example, the word ‘evil’ has certain connotations for some of us today which don’t really apply in the same way for the Stoics. The same goes for the word “virtue.” So, it’s interesting to explore more translations but again you don’t want to get stuck in translation-analysis-paralysis. It’s important that we stay open and keep reading to understood what the Stoics meant. The Stoic teachings transgress historical and cultural limitations.
My favourite translation of Meditations is still Gregory Hays’ translation and the Robin Hard translation is my very close second. It was just that I happened to read Hays first and his introduction really helped me connect with Marcus Aurelius as a writer.
In the introduction, Hays explains Marcus Aurelius’s writing style and practice which (with my reading of Pierre Hadot) guided me towards creating a journaling practice of my own as well as journaling exercises for my friends and co-learners in The Stoic Salon. I spoke about our writing experiences which I called “Meditations on ‘Meditations’” at the Stoicon-x event in Athens in 2019 and you can read about my thoughts here. URL — https://kathryn-koromilas.medium.com/meditations-on-meditations-6eaff3c24183
I also think it is fun to work with a selection of translations. If you join us in The Stoic Salon, you’ll see we had a discussion about translations last year and my friend Tim Mills shared an annotated bibliography of all the translations of Meditations, a brilliant resource!
In terms of secondary resources, Pierre Hadot’s work helped me find a way into Meditations — that’s what opened the door for me. Hadot is such a gorgeous, gentle and gracious thinker and reader of the ancients, and I was finally able to be gentle and curious with the Stoics after years of shunning them for lacking eloquence and poetry.
Hadot’s work also highlights the philosophical practice of the ancients. I also love Elen Buzaré’s Stoic Spiritual Exercises which builds on the work of Hadot and is a book of techniques and exercises to help you develop a Stoic practice.
I also love Bill Irvine’s voice and his ability to communicate Stoicism in a way that makes it infinitely fun and familiar.
I think Massimo Pigliucci and Gregory Lopez’s Live Like a Stoic (UK title) or A Handbook for New Stoics (USA title) is absolute essential doing. I say ‘doing,’ not reading, because Stoicism is, as the authors say, one part theory and nine parts practice. And this handbook gets you to commit to a daily practice.
I love anything that Sharon Lebell writes and The Art of Living should be on everyone’s Stoic bookshelf.
I think Ryan Holiday’s Lives of the Stoics, which he wrote with Stephen Hanselman, is a useful companion book. It’s an accessible resource bringing together all the characters in the story of Stoicism, starting with Zeno and ending with Marcus Aurelius. It provides historical and cultural context to your Stoic journey. And then, armed with this introduction, it’s easier to go back and read some of the primary sources such as Diogenes’ Lives of Eminent Philosophers which is freely available online and loads of fun to read.
I think Nancy Sherman’s Stoic Wisdom is excellent because it interrogates the public brand of Stoicism that emerged in the last 20 years via, let’s say, the military and Silicon Valley interpretations, that kind of solipsistic brand of heroism and indifference. Sherman shows that even our private Stoic practice is always connected to our social bonds. As Marcus Aurelius reminds us, we are born to work together, like feet, hands and eyes.
Donald Robertson’s articles on Medium are essential secondary reading and his book How to Think Like a Roman Emperor is a useful book in remarkable ways. I’ve spoken to a few people who read this book at a time of great personal distress. One person I spoke to had been contemplating suicide. They happened to read the book at that time and it saved them. It literally saved their life. Others have said the same about Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations.
Refer to the Modern Stoicism website, it’s a massive resource. And if you like apps, Caleb Ontiveros’s Stoa app is a helpful resource, too. Speaking of apps, Sam Harris’s Waking Up app has some Stoic lessons from Bill Irvine which are brilliant.
So it doesn’t matter where you begin, just choose one text and begin. If if feels awkward, move on to another. But focus on the one thing at a time. I’ve seen people start reading a text and then start quibbling about the use of a word or reproaching a translator for a choice they made or arguing with themselves about whether one religion or another would align or whether neuroscience challenges the dichotomy of control and everything else and you’ve just got to put a limit to that.
I just think we’ve got to stop having an instant opinion about everything, and just read. Let go of all our assumptions as we read the Stoics because they’re actually quite counter-cultural and we need to make space to be able to hear that. Just listen to the author via the translator or the secondary author. And then, practice. Do some private practice but then connect with others and read and write and practice together. So, for me, my reading list is an invitation to do some private study in a comfy armchair, sure, but ultimately, to grab my books and head out into the world and practice in community.
SD: Many of our readers are Stoa organizers, so what practices or ideas can you suggest for them in their regular meetings? What’s easy for them to implement? If you have a link to a web page of ideas, please include it.
KK: A webpage of ideas is a great idea! I’ll work on that and share on the socials and in The Stoic Salon. Stoicism definitely works better with friends so choose a project that requires some daily practice and gather together once a month for a check-in. A good place to start, and it’s really where I started to learn how to practise philosophy like the Stoics was in Pierre Hadot’s Philosophy as a Way of Life and specifically the chapter “Spiritual Exercises.” In this chapter, Hadot mentions Philo of Alexandria, from whom we now have an idea of the types of spiritual exercises the ancients considered as part of their philosophical training. The exercises on this list include reading, listening, attention, meditations, and therapies of the passions. It’s fascinating and a great resource for any Stoa group.
Meanwhile, here is my list of “10 Things to Practice at your Stoa Meetings.”
- Schedule a month and work together to each create a personal encheiridion, a handbook for life. Make it pocket-sized so that you can always have it with you in times of need. Start by focusing on a particular issue of concern for you. It might be anger management or managing your fear of death. Then look for relevant teachings, summarise them, and copy them into your handbook. Stoa discussions will help find the relevant passages. I have some thoughts here: 10 Reasons To Create Your Own “Encheiridion.”
- Read Meditations and do daily writing activities. Work on reformulating and reexpressing the meditations. I have some thoughts here: Meditations on “Meditations” Towards a more Stoic kind of journaling and How Stoic journaling stopped me overthinking.These activities help with (1) and (10).
- Write Seneca-style letters together. Here is some guidance for this with some preliminary thoughts in a talk I gave for the Aurelius Foundation: Self-Leadership with Seneca’s Letter.
- Use Elen Buzare’s Stoic Spiritual Exercises and practice her exercises.
- Set a date and decide to work through Pigliucci and Lopez’s Live Like a Stoic / A Handbook for New Stoics. In an online space or group email, share the weekly exercises, and meet once a month for a live check-in.
- Read and record Seneca’s letters. You might even want to reformulate an archaic translation into your own words. We did that two summers ago and here is what we came up with: Summer with Seneca Playlist. Having your own playlist is great and then you can meet and discuss each letter.
- Invite an author to join your meetings (on Zoom). We invited Massimo and Greg and they were so happy to join us and their input was so useful and also has set the tone for how we might organise our discussions and think about our practice.
- Organise a “writing for publication” group. We just opened one in The Stoic Salon and I’m hoping it will become sandbox for us to test ideas and to encourage us to write beyond our group.
- Create a music playlist to accompany your Stoic practice. For our “28 Days of Joyful Death Writing” challenge we created this playlist. Choosing the right songs for your Stoic playlist helps you test and practice your knowledge and makes for great discussions at Stoa meetings.
- Use Canva.com to create some wall art with some of your favourite Stoic maxims. Placing these in your home and workplace will be a good reminder of what to focus on when you are faced with difficult situations. You can even create cards to send to your friends (with a Seneca-style letter!).
SD: Thank you for taking the time for this interview. I remember earlier in 2021, we worked together on building your group, The Stoic Salon, and it was a great learning experience! What plans do you have for 2022? What’s coming over the horizon?
KK: So much gratitude to you and to the New England Stoics for joining us for our book club! Your presentations of the chapters of Ryan Holiday’s Lives of the Stoics were so comprehensive and our discussions so considered and so rich and wide-ranging, I too learnt a lot.
In the Stoic Salon, we’ve started the year with a year-long commitment to work through Massimo Pigliucci and Gregory Lopez’s Live Like a Stoic (A Handbook for New Stoics). My friend and fellow Stoic, Sofia Koutlaki is leading us. Everyone can join us at anytime of the year. Just follow this link to the registration page of Live Like a Stoic for a Year — A guided journey through the book. Massimo and Greg joined us for our first meeting on Zoom and we recorded the discussion. The answers to our questions will appeal to everyone, so please go ahead and listen to the conversation here.
This year, I will be recording Season 2 of The Stoic Salon Podcast. You can listen to Season 1 and please subscribe on YouTube or follow on Spotify, Google, Apple, or Pandora so we can stay in touch and you’ll know when I upload another episode. Season 2 will be called “Courage Club” and we’ll be focusing, mostly, on Stoic courage.
Courage Club aligns with the theme of our second women’s conference, which I am once again co-organizing with Brittany Polat. Sign up here for updates about Courageous Paths to Flourishing: Stoicon Women Virtual Gathering 2022 and if you’d like to get involved somehow, please email us. We look forward to seeing everyone there on Saturday 1st October, 2022 — fate permitting!
Meanwhile, I will be leading other writing and journaling experiences in the Stoic Salon, including the much-loved “28 Days of Joyful Death Writing,” where we write with Marcus Aurelius’s contemplations on death. Sign up here for updates.
Everyone is invited to join us in The Stoic Salon and we would love to organise more collaborative events with other Stoa groups. Join us here. And if you’d like to contact me personally please do so here.
Thanks again, Dan!
An Interview with Bill Broadwater
The Stoic Fellowship is happy to offer this interview with Bill Broadwater, the founder and President of the Philadelphia Stoa.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
BB = Bill Broadwater
SD: Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the Stoic Fellowship. Let’s start with the group you organize, the Philadelphia Stoa. When did it start and what have you learned in 2021?
BB: Upon adopting Stoicism as my philosophy of life, I felt a strong need to interact with others interested in the philosophy. Unable to find any Stoic groups, or any individual Stoics, in the Philadelphia area, I decided to start the group to attract anyone in the area interested in discussing Stoicism. We held our very first meeting in May 2018 at a neighborhood public library. With the help of Meetup and a mailing list I created of everyone I knew that I thought might be open to hearing about Stoicism, eighteen people attended.
My main motivation for starting the group was to facilitate the formation of a community interested in studying, discussing, and practicing Stoicism. I believed that a community founded on helping and inspiring one another to progress toward virtue was an effective way to practice Stoicism. In February 2019 we expanded to a second meeting venue at the Ethical Society in downtown Philadelphia. We maintained monthly meetings at both locations until we began meeting on Zoom in April 2020. Due to the pandemic, we have continued to meet only on Zoom. The meetings we’ve had in 2021 demonstrated that we can have a successful virtual community that includes reliable participants from outside our immediate geographic area. When we return to in-person meetings, we plan to continue holding some of our meetings on Zoom.
SD: Your group is currently reading the book “Being Better”. Can you tell us a little about the authors’ approach to teaching Stoicism and how your group’s members have responded to this?
BB: The authors emphasize in the book that Stoicism is a philosophy of life for guiding us toward being better people and that becoming better people involves working to improve not only our own character, but the world. At the end of each chapter in the book the authors pose thought-provoking questions to highlight the necessity of fully utilizing our capacity for reason in applying Stoic principles to personal challenges and societal issues. In this respect, when co-author Kai Whiting met with our group this past year, he posed challenging questions about applying Stoicism and virtue in certain difficult situations. We were required to think deeply about hypothetical scenarios from angles we ordinarily overlook. Most members responded very positively to this mode of teaching and relished being challenged in this way, understanding that real progress often involves getting out of our comfort zone to consider things in a fresh way.
SD: What brought you to philosophy originally? Was there a certain author or book that interested you in wisdom for life?
BB: I spent years exploring life philosophies, well-being techniques, and religions, especially Buddhism, before discovering Stoicism. In 2014, while preparing to teach a lifelong learning course on the science of happiness, I came across the book, “The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can’t Stand Positive Thinking” by Oliver Burkeman. I was intrigued by the author’s depiction of the Stoic practice of premeditating on adversity and explanation of how Stoicism inspired psychotherapist Albert Ellis’s creation of rational emotive behavior therapy. From there, I went on to read a number of books on Stoicism by the ancients and modern writers. Nearly everything I read resonated with me in some way and prompted me to begin trying to apply Stoic principles in my daily life. I found that doing so helped me deal more calmly and effectively with some challenges I faced.
SD: In your group discussions, which of the ancient Stoics resonate with your members? It could be Seneca, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, or a modern author?
BB: I would say that of the ancients, Marcus Aurelius resonates the most on the basis that the group seemed most interested in reading the Meditations before reading Seneca or Epictetus. Also, our practice group recently chose to dive deeply into the Inner Citadel, a study of the Meditations by the French philosopher Pierre Hadot. The reason for selecting the Meditations probably has to do with the book being somewhat well known, appearing on some lists of the all-time greatest books, and that Marcus Aurelius is more known than the other ancient Stoics. Also, the nature of the book, being a private journal in which we see into Marcus’s psyche as he works on his own ethical self-improvement seems to pique people’s interest.
SD: Do the members of your group represent certain fields, like Engineers or Military? We’ve noticed some correlation with certain careers and Stoicism.
BB: I haven’t noticed that any particular field clearly stands out in our group, although it seems as though a few of our most active members are in the psychology field.
SD: Many of our readers are Stoa organizers, so what tips can you offer them? The frequently-asked questions are about setting up a group on Meetup and running a group (either weekly or monthly). Also, please give us the web address of your group, so other organizers can see your events.
BB: I think it’s important to have events on a regular basis and announce them clearly, consistently, and in a timely manner on Meetup. Most months we have three open meetings on a different book or topic. In addition to Being Better, we currently have monthly meetings on William Irvine’s “A Guide to the Good Life”. We also recently started a recurring “Introduction to Stoicism” meeting for first-timers. Meetings are usually facilitated by me and/or our two co-organizers, Joe Bullock and Amjol Shrestha. For book meetings, the facilitator prepares a document containing key passages from the book for discussion. Also, I like to have pertinent questions prepared to ask the group concerning key points to stimulate discussion.
We also run a weekly closed meeting for our practice group made up of consistently participating members who have committed to doing all the necessary readings and practices. Each week we discuss any challenges members have faced, how we practiced during the week, and members’ suggestions for practicing if warranted. Information about our open meetings is available at https://philadelphiastoa.org.
SD: What resources of the Modern Stoicism movement help your members put Stoicism into practice? Is it books or articles or videos?
BB: We use articles, videos, and books as resources for meetings and practice. When we have meetings on specific topics, we usually provide a link beforehand to an article or video suitable for the topic. I think, however, that books are the primary resource. The book we find ourselves referring to the most for practice is the Handbook for New Stoics by Massimo Pigliucci and Greg Lopez. We spent a year going through the book as a group and continue to refer to it often in discussions about practice as the need arises. Other books we have read as a group that have helped with our practice include “How to Be a Stoic” by Massimo and “The Practicing Stoic” by Ward Farnsworth.
SD: Have you invited academics to speak at your group or any of the scholars from the Modern Stoicism movement? How can a group grow from including academics or scholars?
BB: Massimo spoke to us in person at our meeting venue a few months before COVID and Kai Whiting spoke to us via Zoom in 2021. Going forward, we plan to invite other scholars and authors to speak. Such personages can impart valuable knowledge to help us better practice the philosophy and may attract people who don’t often attend meetings, as well as newcomers who may go on to become regular participants. Their knowledge and status within the Modern Stoicism movement may inspire those who are marginally interested in Stoicism to become more committed to practicing the philosophy.
SD: Thanks so much for granting this interview. My last question is about the future. What are some of your possible plans for the new year?
BB: Two significant projects that we have already started working on are building a website for the group and registering as a 501c3 non-profit corporation under the name Philadelphia Stoa. We are also looking to create a Stoicon-X event for the fall. When we are able to resume in-person meetings, we plan to add new meeting venues and events including social get-togethers, hikes, charitable activities, and presentations on Stoicism to community groups.
Thank you, Dan, for the opportunity to present this information about the Philadelphia Stoa.
An Interview with Ranjini George
This quarter, the Stoic Fellowship is very pleased to offer an interview with Ranjini George, MA, MFA, PhD, who has fashioned her life around creative writing, research, and teaching. She was born in Calcutta, India and taught English at Northern Illinois University. She was also an Associate Professor of English at Zayed University, Dubai, where she founded and ran the Teaching with the Mind of Mindfulness series. As a Mindfulness Meditation Instructor, she trained in various wisdom traditions and studied with different teachers such as Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Thich Nhat Hanh, Hari Nam Singh Khalsa and Lama Tsultrim Allione. She currently teaches Creative Writing, mindfulness and Stoicism at the School of Continuing Studies, University of Toronto and in 2019 received the Excellence in Teaching Award. She is also a visiting teacher for the Tara Mandala Buddhist International organization. Her book, Through My Mother’s Window was published in Dubai in December 2016. Most recently, an excerpt from her novel-in-progress was published in Stoicism Today.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics)
RG = Ranjini George
- — -
SD: Thanks for joining us today, Ranjini. Let’s start with the amazing links between Stoicism and Buddhism. What meaningful connections do you and your students find between the beliefs of Stoicism and Buddhism? Most of our readers of this article are Stoa organizers, so we giving them ideas on how to start discussions in their groups.
RG: Stoic mindfulness ties in with Buddhist mindfulness practice. So does the emphasis on present moment awareness. Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh (or, Thay, as he is affectionately called by his students) reminds us that the past is dead and the future is not yet born. The only country is the country of the present moment.
The practice of how one begins and ends one’s day is important. In both Stoicism and Buddhism there is a great deal of emphasis on how one begins and ends one day. As Seneca reminds us, “Each day is a life.” We begin our day reminding ourselves of our intentions and core values. At the end of each day, we ask ourselves the three questions: What did I do (accomplish)? What did I leave out? What could I have done better? (cf. The Golden Verses of Pythagoras)
Instead of saying, “How are you?”, Atisha, one of the great 11th century Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist teachers, asked: “Have you been kind?”
I keep a journal and it is a practice I recommend. Journaling is a way that we can understand ourselves, our lives, and distill and contemplate what we’re studying. Journaling and contemplative meditation are powerful ways to connect with one’s intuitive self, contemplate the teachings, and to encourage self-inquiry (the Delphic maxim: Know Yourself).
SD: One of Seneca’s famous quotes is “Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.” For those looking for links in knowledge, what Buddhist sutras might agree with this?
RG: Of our suffering, Thich Nhat Hanh (Thay) says,
No Mud.
No Lotus.
Buddhism teaches us that we don’t push away the parts of ourselves that hurt, but that we cradle our anger, our jealousy, our depression and fears, like a mother cradles a child. We bring to that suffering self, the energy of mindfulness. We learn to stay. We make going home to ourselves a pleasant place.
One morning in Dubai, as I was walking on the beach in Jumeirah and struggling with what I considered problems, I had an imaginary conversation with Thay.
“So much Mud,” I said.
I heard in reply: “Bigger Lotus.”
Trungpa Rinpoche, the Tibetan teacher, reminds us “The obstacle is the path.” Ryan Holiday demonstrates through his narration of life stories the same premise in The Obstacle is the Way.
Thay taught me that our suffering can be garbage or it can be compost from which fruits and vegetables can grow. We learn to make good use of our suffering.
Amor Fati. This is what Marcus reminds us in the opening verse of Bk.4. All our obstacles become material to add to the fire. The fire blazes brighter. Everything that comes is fuel for this fire. It is not something we wish away or resist. As Marcus wrote: “A blazing fire makes flame and brightness out of everything that is thrown into it.”
SD: Mindfulness is becoming a popular concept for modern discussions in both Buddhism and Stoicism. In Stoicism, it usually leads to improvement in how we focus on our day, on finding purpose, and how focus can lead to greater tranquility. How would you describe the benefits of mindful awareness in Buddhism?
RG: In many ways, it is the same, though there is a greater emphasis on sitting practice and walking meditation in Buddhism. It is easy to remind ourselves to be compassionate, but how do you train yourself to be more compassionate? There are many compassion practices in Buddhism. There are practices that help us develop greater equanimity, loving kindness (metta), joy and so forth.
In Mahayana Buddhist practice, setting our Boddhichitta aspiration is a daily practice. We practice moving beyond our egoic selves and wishing well for others, loved ones, strangers, those we consider our enemies and all sentient beings. We begin our day with this aspiration, one that takes us beyond our small self.
Bodhichitta practice helps us cultivate generosity and warm heartedness. It takes us beyond our personal preoccupations, narcissism and greed. Bodhicitta focuses on interconnection. “May all beings be happy…” It encourages loving kindness (metta).
I recite my bodhichitta aspiration every. I find this daily practice a powerful antidote (“good medicine”) to egoic self-obsession, craving, desire for more and more for oneself, and my own anger, grievances and resentments. We learn to soften our heart. We learn to stay open. We realize our interconnection or as Thay would say “inter-being.”
SD: Over the years, I remember some of our wonderful conversation, which have included the wisdom of Thich Nhat Hanh. One of my favorite quotes is “Walk as if you are kissing the Earth with your feet.” He beautifully combines gratitude, positivity, humility, and simplicity. How does he do that? Isn’t it amazing? What do you think?
RG: Yes, Dan. I remember us practicing walking meditation on the flight back from Athens after the 2019 Stoicon conference. Maybe you can include a link of our video! (https://youtu.be/fWE3DUgaatw) What an extraordinary event that was! I remember standing across from the Ancient Agora and surveying the Stoa Poikle. In your case, you walked among the ruins!
I first met Thich Nhat Hanh (Thay) at a weeklong retreat at a Mindfulness for Educators retreat at Brock University in Ontario, Canada in August 2013. We would begin each day of our retreat with walking meditation. After breakfast, we attended his morning teachings. It was wonderful. Thay is a powerful teacher. His presence radiates compassion and presence. That week at Brock was one of the most precious weeks of my life.
I have learned so much from Thich Nhat Hanh that I consider him my spiritual father. He speaks simply and practically. His mantras are easy to remember:
Present Moment, Wonderful Moment.
Happiness is here and now.
Flow as a River.
I am home. I have arrived.
Nowhere to go. Nothing to do.
Buddhism as you know is not theistic. The Buddha is within us. Guan Yin, the boddhisattva of compassion, is within us. She is the principle of compassion. We learn to become our own refuge. We connect to our own Buddha nature.
As Thay reminds us, whatever we practice grows stronger. Practice anger. Your anger grows. Practice compassion. Your compassion grows.
In Buddhism, the deities we contemplate and visualize and bow to are as substantial as rainbows.
Both the one bowed to and the one who bows are both empty.
“Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Form is no other than Emptiness. Emptiness is no other than form.”
I was very sad when Thay had his stroke in November 2014 which left him partially paralyzed and unable to speak. I was very sad when my father passed. I am sad when things that I love and cherish are lost. But Buddhism and Stoicism remind us that the only constant is change. The cloud become rain. The rain become tea.
As Thay says.
“No Birth. No death. Only continuation.”
*For more on this, read Thich Nhat Hanh’s slim book on the Heart Sutra: The Heart of Understanding: Commentaries on the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra.” It is a brief and concise elucidation of this most complex and inexhaustible of Mahayana Buddhist texts.
SD: For those meetup organizers who are reading this article, do you prefer the works of Donald Robertson, Antonia Macaro, Massimo Pigliucci, John Sellars, or others in the Modern Stoicism movement? What about their writings draws you in?
RG: As a student of English Literature, I read sections of Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations. In Dubai, I received the gift of a Roman bust. Fascinated by this bust that remained nameless for nine years, on a visit to the Ancient Agora in Athens in 2007, I discovered his name. His name was Antonius Pius and he was the adoptive father of Marcus. The story of this bust wove itself into my memoir-in-progress that won a Canadian prize: The Miracle of Flowers: In the Footsteps of an Emperor, a Goddess, a Story and a Tiffin Stall. The emperor in my memoir is Antoninus and the goddess (or, rather Boddhisattva or enlightened being/or enlightened sage) is the female Buddha, Kuan Yin. Even then, my interest in Stoicism was intertwined with my practice of Buddhism and interest in the sacred feminine. Article (https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2010/06/13/got_writers_block_try_your_local_coffee_shop.html)
However, it was only in April 2019, when I pre-ordered and then avidly read and reread Donald Robertson’s book, How to Think Like a Roman Emperor, that I truly began to understand and practice Stoicism. I realized then that there was so much in Stoicism that was resonant with Buddhism. Donald’s book has had a profound impact on me. I use his book, along with Marcus’ Meditations, in my Stoicism and the Good Life class (https://learn.utoronto.ca/programs-courses/courses/3698-stoicism-and-good-life)
I am very grateful to Donald for his book and for embodying in his humility and warmheartedness the teachings of Stoicism. Such is the importance of our human effort. Yours in interviewing me. Donald in writing his book. And so on…We can never measure the consequences of our influence on others. We just do our work with presence and integrity.
Since then, I have attended Stoicon and other events and have learned from Christopher Gill, John Sellars, Massimo Pigliucci and others.
Antonia Macaro’s book on Stoicism and Buddhism is wonderfully rendered and focuses on the Pali cannon of Buddhism.
My training as a Buddhist teacher is in the Mahayana traditions, both Zen and Tibetan. I’m interested in exploring this area with regard to Stoicism. My most recent presentation at our very first Stocion-x Women’s event (June 2021) was on “A Female Buddha and a Roman Emperor: Joyful Lessons in Living.”
As a teacher of creative writing, lover of books and philosophy, I have also been inspired by Eric Weiner’s excellent book, The Socrates Express. I have also learned from the born teacher and philosopher, Rob Colter, Senior Lecturer at Wyoming University and founder of the Stoic camp. (Incidentally, Eric has an excellent chapter on Epictetus, Stoic camp and Rob in his book!) Rob eloquently lectures on Stoicism and philosophy. He makes philosophy come alive in the classroom, and his story of Socrates’ death brought me to tears. Rob lives Stoicism with heartfelt engagement and loving kindness (metta).
Rob, Eric, Donald, Kathryn, Gabriel Blott (Minnesota Stoics) and you, Dan, have kindly offered guest lectures in my UofT classes. Thank you! Though I am a teacher of both Buddhism and Stoicism, I very much consider myself a lifelong student on this path.
SD: The second time I spoke to your class at University of Toronto, the topic was “Stoic Discipline”. I remember the students were engaged on how discipline can help manage desires in the modern world. How can Buddhism help us achieve this?
RG: The Dalai Lama often talks about the necessity of cultivating and training ourselves in compassion. He says that whether we’re religious or not is irrelevant. What is important is that we cultivate warmheartedness. It is interesting that when he talks about compassion, he also emphasizes self-discipline.
There it is — from the Dalai Lama himself.
Cultivate compassion and self-discipline.
Compassion comes first. Compassion must always come first.
But without discipline we cannot manifest our dreams and live the lives we imagine for ourselves.
In Buddhism we speak about the six jewels or paramitas. Discipline or silla (in Sanskrit) or Tsultrim in Tibetan is one of the paramitas.
We need to cultivate discipline of body, speech and mind — Right Conduct, Right Speech is all part of the Buddha’s 8-fold path.
As a creative writer, I remember the words of Flannery O’Connor. She emphasized the “habit of art.” Without this daily habit of showing up at the desk, talent disappears. Whether we feel like it or not, we show up and write. We chose a time and place.
As my Kundalini yoga teacher Hari Nam Singh Khalsa says, “Be a disciple to your discipline.”
Discipline is not repressive. Discipline is true freedom.
As Marcus reminds us in the Meditations, we learn to work without being attached to outcome. We train ourselves to be free of “secondary considerations” (fame, publication, and so on).
It is also important How we work. We bring joy to our work. Joyful effort. We are alive. It is a gift to be alive.
SD: In June 2021, the first conference called “Stoicon-X Women” was held online and featured women speaking on topics like mindfulness, care, and creativity. How can the female voice help us understand philosophy today and find our path to a flourishing life?
RG: Without giving voice and space to the feminine in our culture, our world, and its philosophies, including Stoicism, will remain askew. Perhaps Marcus draws so many of us because he did not fit the masculine stereotypes of his day, which was one of aggression. Marcus was not a hawk like Avidius Cassius, but, as he was scornfully labeled, a “dove.” Within him was a balance of both principles, the female and the male. Marcus knew that the stereotypical masculine constructs of his day were not useful, even dangerous. He knew that in gentleness, self-reflection, kindness and vulnerability lies great strength.
The Stoicon-x women’s conference with its emphasis on care, creativity and relationships brought Stoic wisdom to the heart. Stoicism is relevant to the day-to-day practice of our ordinary (and extraordinary) oh so fleeting human lives. Stoicism is a philosophy that emphasizes interrelationship, warm heartedness, friendship and love. See, Bk. 1 of the Meditations. What a wonderful testament to the necessity of the practice of gratitude and warm heartedness. At the Stoicon-x conference, the wonderful Sharon Lebell brought music into our space. Alkistis Agio led us in a meditation. The conference was diverse and inclusive. It was a truly wonderful event. Thanks to two wonderful and inspiring women, Kathryn Korimilas and Brittany Polat.
SD: What Buddhist or Stoic authors do you recommend for people who are in great difficulty. This is needed, in part, because many people are suffering — psychologically and financially — during the pandemic.
RG: Of course, Marcus’ Meditations. I love the Robin Hard and Christopher Gill translation. I also like the Hays translation. Of course, Donald Robertson’s How to Think like a Roman Emperor.
Thich Nhat Hanh teachings are widely available on YouTube, and his books are many. Any book of Thay would be wonderful. His interview with Oprah Winfrey (available on YouTube) would be a good starting point. So would his slim book, True Love, where he talks about the four mantras of True Love.
The Dalai Lama is also a wonderful teacher, and his book, The Art of Happiness, set me on Buddhist Journey. So are the books of Pema Chödrön, When Things Fall Apart, to name just one.
On YouTube you can listen to the Bell Chant offered by the Plum Village community, or attend one of their online offerings. Mindfulness is a wonderful practice. It teaches us not just attention and concentration and present moment awareness but vast mind, open space and open heart. When I listened to the audio of Donald’s meditation on View from Above, it reminded me of many of my Buddhist practice. I do both Buddhist and Stoic meditations quite regularly.
You could enjoy one of my free meditations: Kuan Yin of the Lake.
Also, this podcast from Kathryn Korimilas / Stoic Salon on Mindfulness, Buddhism, Stoicism and Creative Writing.
Metta meditation in song, Jennifer Berezan.
A few other favorite Buddhist books:
Pema Chödrön, Practicing Peace in Times of War. Shambhala, 2007.
Lama Tsultrim Allione, Wisdom Rising: Journey into the Mandala of the Empowered Feminine. Atria Books, 2018.
Thich Nhat Hanh, The Miracle of Mindfulness. Beacon Press, 1992
METTA/LOVE MEDITATION
Thich Nhat Hanh, Happiness: Essential Mindfulness Practices. Parallax Press, 2009.
P. 113–114, “This is a love meditation adapted from the Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purification) by Buddhaghosa, a fifth-century CE systematization of the Buddha’s teachings.”
May I be peaceful, happy and light in body and spirit.
May I be safe and free from injury.
May I be free from anger, afflictions, fear, and anxiety.
May I learn to look at myself with the eyes of understanding and love.
May I be able to recognize and touch the seeds of joy and happiness in myself.
May I learn to identify and see the sources of anger, craving and delusion in myself.
May I know how to nourish the seeds of joy in myself every day.
May I be able to live fresh, solid and free.
May I be free from attachment and aversion, but not be indifferent.
Begin practicing this love meditation on yourself (“I”)
Practice on others (May he/she/they be…)
Learn More:
https://modernstoicism.com/blue-flowers-novel-excerpt-by-ranjini-george/
https://learn.utoronto.ca/programs-courses/courses/3816-dear-diary-marcus-aurelius-anne-frank-and-thich-nhat-hanh
https://learn.utoronto.ca/programs-courses/courses/3522-mindfulness-stoicism-and-writing-discipline-and-productivity
https://www.taramandala.org/blog/two-writings
https://ranjinigeorge.wordpress.com/
An Interview with Eric Weiner
This quarter, The Stoic Fellowship has interviewed Eric Weiner — an author, speaker, and former correspondent for NPR. He calls himself a ‘philosophical traveler’ and likes to explore the intersection of places and ideas. His latest book is The Socrates Express. It starts with Marcus Aurelius and Stoicism, and then explores the life lessons of other great philosophers, such as Socrates, Rousseau, and Thoreau. The book’s contents would offer any Stoa organizer lots of great material to start discussions in their meetups.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics)
EW = Eric Weiner
— — —
SD: Your introduction to “The Socrates Express” has some great advice for us in the Information Age. It reminds us that “wisdom untangles the facts” and also “wisdom is something you do”. In other words, we can act upon wisdom, but not raw data. What practical wisdom from Stoicism has impacted your life?
EW: First of all, I’m glad my thought on the “wisdom drought” of the Information Age resonated with you. We often confuse information and wisdom when, in fact, they have little in common. If anything, an excess of information (what a friend calls “data smog”) can obscure our vision and make wisdom less likely. This is where, I think, philosophy enters the picture. It helps us make sense of all that information and knowledge — and, as you say, put it to good use. Philosophy is not only contemplation. It is also about action. Wise action.
This is where Stoicism excels. If you look at the greats Stoics — Zeno, Aurelius, Seneca, and others — -they were all men of action. They were thinkers and doers. For me, this came as something of a revelation — the notion of what I call the “philosopher as action hero.”
One Stoic precept that I keep coming back to, especially this past year, is the notion of control. Specifically, how we have very little control over external events, much less than we think, but much control over our internal reaction to those events.
SD: How did you find Stoicism? Was it through studying another philosophy or perhaps reading a certain author?
EW: It wasn’t one thing that brought me to Stoicism but, rather a steady trail of bread crumbs. Years ago, while researching my first book, The Geography of Bliss, I met a philosopher/therapist named Tim LeBon. He uses philosophy to help his clients navigate life’s choppier waters, and in particular Stoicism. (Stoicism, of course, was born of a shipwreck, when Zeno ran into trouble while sailing.) This makes sense. Stoicism, of course, is the inspiration behind Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Why not return to the original source?
Then I caught wind of a “Stoicon” convention in New York. On something of a lark, I signed up, I was impressed. Here was a group of people devoted to one purpose: wisdom. You don’t see that every day, at least not outside of a religious setting. That is when I decided to include a chapter on Stoicism in my book, The Socrates Express.
SD: You compare Marcus Aurelius — and the large Roman Empire that he governed — to the difficulty that you have in governing your work desk, with magazines and knick-knacks. I thought this was humorous. You also describe mornings as a cloudy and emotional time of day. Why do you think Marcus and his writings are timeless and can help us in these aspects of our lives?
EW: It’s funny because it’s true! I am not master of my desk. Seriously, what impresses me about Marcus Aurelius is not the fact that he was an emperor and a philosopher, but that he was so very human. In Meditations, he lays out all his insecurities, doubts, fears and peccadillos. For a book that was written, some 2,000 years ago, it feels incredibly contemporary.
One of the greatest lessons Marcus has to teach us, I think, is to embrace our humanity, to admit to our failings, rather than papering them over. I mean, if a Roman emperor still has trouble getting out of bed in the morning, then maybe I shouldn’t castigate myself for hitting the snooze button.
SD: In the book, you imagine a scene where Marcus Aurelius is in his tent along the River Danube. It’s a cold day, and the battle is going badly and troops have low morale. In addition, Marcus had other troubles to deal with in life. Why do you think Marcus was drawn to philosophy?
EW: I think Marcus was drawn to philosophy for the same reasons so many of us are: life was a problem for him, and he was looking for answers. Answers no necessarily to “what” or “why” questions but to “how” questions. How to be a “good” person; how to cope with adversity; how endure the unendurable. The only difference between Marcus and us (well, besides the fact that he was a Roman emperor) is that in his day philosophy was considered a rich source of practical wisdom, while today it is, sadly, considered by many (not all) a colossal waste of time.
SD: In another chapter, you present a revealing quote by Jacob Needleman: “Our culture has generally tended to solve its problems without experiencing its questions.” Then you proceed to interview Needleman, which reveals how Socrates altered the way we ask questions and why the answers are valuable. Do you think the Modern Stoicism movement is helping us ask meaningful questions to each other and to build civil discourse?
EW: I do. What I like about Stoicism is that it addresses both theoretical and practical questions. Unlike some philosophies, Stoicism is very much grounded in the “real world.” By that, I mean healthy civic discourse and civic duty matter a lot to the Stoics. There’s a reason Zeno founded the school under the Stoa, smack in the middle of the bustling agora of ancient Athens. The Stoics believe we are social and political (in the best sense of the word) beings. Stoicism is both an “I” philosophy and a “we” philosophy, if you know what I mean. So, yes, I do think the Modern Stoicism movement does help us ask meaningful questions and, by doing so, enlivens our civic discourse.
SD: You described how people felt terror in the early days of trains. In a letter dated August 22, 1837, the famous French poet Victor Hugo said of a train ride: “The flowers by the side of the road are no longer flowers but flecks, or rather streaks, of red or white…” This reminded me how Stoicism has taught me to value my time and focus better on the fulfilling things in life. How do you focus in your busy schedule?
EW: It’s a struggle, to be honest. I constantly have to triage my activities and ask: what is truly important and what is not? Am I about to do something, anything, because it will, in some small way, make the world a better place, or is it merely to scratch an ego itch? As the great historian Will Durant once said, “I want know that the big things are big and the small things small, and before it’s too late.” I love that quote. I turn to it often when I’m flailing in a million different directions and ask myself: What matters here? What is big and what is small?
SD: Your observation on page 40 was, I think, important for the modern world. You observed that Rousseau (from the 1700s) enjoyed walking, despite that horse-drawn carriages were available. Today, we have all forms of transportation, and soon, driver-less taxis may be plentiful. How can we slow down and enjoy the solitude of walking again? For me, this connects to mindful living, but also allows a person to be a humble and rational thinker (as a practicing Stoic).
EW: You’re right. The pandemic has robbed us of much. There is (still) much we can’t do. We can walk, though, and thank goodness for that. Walking is an act of defiance, one of the few ways we can thumb our nose — and our feet — at the virus that has upended our lives.
Walking soothes and revives, encourages and inspires — and sometimes, walking changes the world. From Mahatma Gandhi’s Great Salt March in India to Martin Luther King, Jr’s 1965 march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, walking and protest have been joined at the hip.
Walking is democratic. Barring a disability, anyone can walk. The wealthy walker has no advantage over the impoverished one, nor does the powerful walker best the powerless. Freedom is walking’s essence. The freedom to depart and return when we wish, to meander. to, as Robert Louis Stevenson put it, “follow this way or that, as the freak takes you.”
Many a breakthrough has been stumbled upon while putting one foot in front of the other. While working on A Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens would walk fifteen or twenty miles through the back streets of London, turning over the plot in his mind, as the city slept. Beethoven found inspiration while ambling in the verdant Wienerwald outside Vienna.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau bested them all. He’d regularly walk 20 miles in a single day. “I can scarcely think when I remain still; my body must be in motion to make my mind active.” More recently, studies have confirmed Rousseau’s hunch. Our mind is at its most creative at three miles per hour, the speed of a moderately paced stroll.
SD: The chapter on Henry David Thoreau starts with a very engaging statement: “Some are born Thoreau, others achieve Thoreau. Most have Thoreau thrust upon them.” How did you conceive of this statement and how do you connect this to Modern Stoicism or American Transcendentalism?
EW: Well, it’s true. Back in ninth grade, I didn’t choose to read Thoreau. He was forced upon me. This is a problem. As the great Indian poet Tagore said, “The tastiest tidbit may not be relished when thrown at one’s head.” This why, I think, so many people are turned off by philosophy. It is thrown at their head. Reaching out to these thinkers voluntarily makes all the difference. When I reread Thoreau (not only Walden but his essays and journal entries too) I found a different Thoreau. I found a wise and accessible Thoreau — even, at times a funny Thoreau.
Thoreau read the Stoics, and was well acquainted with the philosophy. He was, in his own way, a Stoic. Like other Transcendentalists, he had faith in things unseen. He was a keen observer, and had no patience for the so-called “view from nowhere.” He embraced simplicity (for a while at least) and public duty. I’m thinking of the time, in 1848, he famously spent a night in jail, rather than pay a poll tax. A fervent abolitionist, Thoreau explained, “I cannot for an instant recognize . . . as my government that which is the slave’s government also.” In other words, he took a principled stand, even that meant he must suffer. That strike me as very Stoic!
DS: Thank you so much for this interview. I’ve truly enjoyed your book “The Socrates Express” and will recommend it to others. Do you have any upcoming articles or events that you can tell us about? We’d love to hear about them.
EW: You’re welcome! Thank you for the terrific questions. In addition to my books and public speaking, I also lead writing workshops. In fact, I will be leading two writing workshops later this year: one in the Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan and another, closer to home, in Arizona. Anyone who might be interested can find more information at my website: www.ericweinerbooks.com.
An Interview with Will Johncock
This quarter, The Stoic Fellowship has interviewed Will Johncock, who writes about our individual and collective relations with time. He works within the fields of continental philosophy, Stoic philosophy, social theory, and sociology. His latest book is Stoic Philosophy and Social Theory. For more info, visit his website: https://willjohncock.com
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of Orlando Stoics)
WJ = Will Johncock
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SD: What was your inspiration for the book “Stoic Philosophy and Social Theory” and for whom did you write it?
WJ: Much recent literature and online material that integrates Stoic philosophy focuses on the dichotomy of control. This details the personal benefits for individuals who can learn to be indifferent to what they cannot control. I don’t discount the value of this emphasis. It genuinely improves people’s lives. My interpretation of Stoicism, however, is that fundamentally it is not a philosophy occupied with individual or personal outcomes. Instead, Stoicism’s concerns are communal and universal. This perspective isn’t as easily adaptable to self-help literature. It also has much less commercial appeal. Nevertheless, my book is inspired by the orientation I see in the Stoics toward social and universal understandings of the self. I study these broader orientations by comparing Stoic philosophies to modern theories in sociology and social theory. This is a useful approach, because these latter theorists typically explore how we are contingently socialized by presiding power structures and social norms, and further posit that this structural production of individuals is inescapable. The Stoics conversely warn us to guard against being shaped by society in such ways. They instead define our social being as a universal fellowship that is attributable to our shared rationality. In exploring this difference, I wrote the book for anyone interested in the social themes within Stoicism, and had both public readers and scholars in mind. I comprehensively discuss what being social means for the Stoics, and attempt to refine our understanding of that by drawing comparisons with the aforementioned sociologies and social theories.
SD: In chapter 2, you connect what we control in our lives (our thoughts) to an ordered universe (a rational one). Why do you think Epictetus plays an important role in this relationship?
WJ: A pivotal aspect of our relationship with a rational, ordered universe concerns the daimon. The daimon is described as a trace or fragment of a pantheistically rational world that we each embody. The portrayals provided by both Cicero and Galen of Posidonius’ account of the daimon are incredibly useful. Epictetus however offers the most comprehensive explanation of the union that exists between us all as a result of what is common about our respective daimons. Where Epictetus further emphasizes the relation of our daimon rationalities to a pantheistic order, so his lectures become crucial to appreciating what we internally share with the universe as a whole.
SD: The next chapter covers the topic of mindfulness and being present. How can we better focus on the important things in life — in an age when news and ads are demanding more of our attention?
WJ: The Stoics offer two impressions of time. One is that time is an endless continuity. The other is of time’s perpetual subdivisions. In the first model, states of time that appear to not be present, actually seemingly do inhabit the present moment. In the second model, we alternatively are offered a conception of spatial time (not too dissimilar to what Henri Bergson would later identify and critique), in which the present is always limited, finite, and mutually excluded from other time states. Gilles Deleuze provides a neat account for a modern philosophical audience of these dual Stoic impressions of time in his Logic of Sense. The important point for us to consider from all this is whether for the Stoics we can ever live absolutely in a present state or moment. With Marcus Aurelius there is an emphatic message to live in the now, in the present. Preceding Stoic models of time though seem to be more nuanced. Reports of Chrysippus’ interpretation indicate that he was probably a thinker who was highly sensitive to the intricacies of time. This is all to say, the question of the present for the Stoics differs between its eras, which prevents us from reducing Stoicism’s perspectives on this topic to a single position. If I was to offer one idea with the beliefs of numerous Stoics in mind however, it would be that in order to practically develop a less-distracted relation with the present, we should be humble. We should learn to appreciate. We should avoid desiring what we don’t yet have, we should avoid lamenting what we have lost. This is because for much of Stoicism, we never really had, or ever will have, what we lament or desire in a conventional sense anyway. Why? Because everything is change.
SD: In my Stoic discussion groups in Florida, people are always interested in connecting Stoic concepts to other philosophers and ideas. You described the idea of Émile Durkheim: “social structures exist before and after any individual’s existence”. This is profound and can be linked to the Stoic term “cosmopolis” plus the thought experiment of John Rawls (“the veil of ignorance”). How can we use Stoicism to improve society and to live in harmony?
WJ: Durkheim is an interesting discussant for the Stoics. This is due to his beliefs that we are inescapably socially structured. Even when we believe that we are individually or subjectively controlling our thoughts, decisions, actions, and so on, for Durkheim these aspects of the self are still socially shaped. The Stoics present a different point of view. Contrary to Durkheim, they believe we can defy our external socialization. We can do this by being indifferent to what happens socially that is not in our control. Complementing this though, the Stoics do recognize socially and universally harmonious aspects to our being. For instance, they posit that we are each a part of a worldwide human community (a thesis forwarded perhaps most famously by Hierocles). They also describe the entire universe, beyond humans exclusively, as a kind of community (Marcus’ Aurelius descriptions are most evocative on this topic). Through Stoicism’s sense of the cosmopolis specifically, which you mention, we get this wonderful sense of a singular community comprising all humans. The more that this Stoic worldview is adopted, the more trivial become cultural and geographical disputes and divisions. A mindset that recognizes collective and universal ends, rather than hyper-individualized and localized investments, seems quite harmony-inducing!
SD: In covering Seneca’s works, you mention “One of the developmental aspects of this Stoic perspective is that we can acquire wisdom and transcend our previously ignorant state.” What’s a major Stoic idea that helped you transcend in your life?
WJ: Seneca’s response to ignorance is that through self-training, and the consequent self-awareness and knowledge that such training develops, we are capable of overcoming irrational fears and a previously unvirtuous state. He interestingly describes this training in two ways. Firstly, it requires an inward journey, where we reflect rationally rather than travel geographically to learn new things (the latter in Seneca’s view only provides us with contingent, incidental knowledge). Secondly, he describes such training as a process that involves practicing the “social arts”. I really like the way Seneca raises this latter element, as it recognizes that becoming more self-aware involves collegially oriented elements. A major Stoic idea via which I embarked on such self-training concerned my first encounters with Stoic physics. The principle embedded within much Stoic physics, that everything in the universe is composed of the same rationalized substance (or “wax” as Marcus Aurelius refers to it), resonated with me. It helped me to appreciate the sameness within difference. The notion that anything in the world could ever really be “other” than I faded.
SD: In learning philosophy, you wrote that knowledge is “sedimented” over time. I like this metaphor, because it helps people understand how philosophy is acquired and used. At my first Stoicon conference, I heard a speech by Chuck Chakrapani, in which he said Stoicism is not just a series of tools (used one at a time), but that all the tools play at once like “a symphony”, and in turn, helps us navigate our lives. Have you heard other good metaphors for teaching Stoicism?
WJ: Chuck is spot on! I’ve always found Chuck to effectively communicate the cohesiveness of Stoic principles. My own favorite use of metaphor in contemporary Stoicism is actually via a warning about what not to do with its philosophies. Here I refer to Massimo Pigliucci rightly criticizing in his essay, “The Growing Pains of the Stoic Movement”, how select elements of Stoicism are often presented as “life hacks” or “tricks”. As with Chuck’s comment, Massimo reminds us that Stoicism as a practice requires more than just the adoption of one or two popularized soundbites.
SD: I’m glad that you connected Stoicism to the global issue of climate change. You point out that some low-lying countries will be affected first as sea levels rise. Their economies and infrastructures will be damaged. Most discussions on Stoicism focus “within”, but I agree that we can also improve conditions “without” (on a global scale). My friend Kai Whiting is focused on the environment and Stoicism. Do you know of other Stoic scholars who are helping us reexamine the environment through Stoic perspectives?
WJ: Kai’s essay with Leonidas Konstantakos, “Stoic Theology: Revealing or Redundant”, is one of my favorite recent Stoic commentaries. It reviews the application of Stoicism to environmental discourse in such a balanced way, by accommodating both theological and scientific vernacular and principles. When considering Stoicism’s relevance to questions of environmental science, the Stoics’ pantheistic component provokes much debate! Scientific processes regularly require empirical verifiability of course. Theological parameters conversely seem to be dogmatically unchallengeable, in a way that might not seem to help us much in addressing climate change. Kai and Leonidas really unsettle this division between science and theology though when they talk about Stoicism being a “naturalist theology”. Additional useful discussions of the relevance of Stoicism to environmental issues are William Stephens’ article “Stoic Naturalism, Rationalism, and Ecology”, Christopher Gill’s essay “Stoicism and the Environment”, and Dirk Baltzly’s article “Stoic Pantheism”. Each offers the insight that the Stoic God probably isn’t that dissimilar to what we conventionally and currently refer to as an empirically analyzable nature. I really like Dirk’s appraisal that because the Stoics observed an ordered world, and then interpreted a rational God as the cause of it, that the Stoics must actually be studying the world empirically anyway.
SD: One of your areas of research is the individual’s relationship with time (fascinating!). When you consider the industrialization of society, how does this affect (or change) the Stoic mantra of people “living according to Nature”?
WJ: This is a great question! Often people incorrectly reduce the Stoic term “Nature” to ecological flora and fauna. Given that Nature in Stoicism refers to a rational and virtuous existence, industrialization in itself isn’t necessarily Nature-destructive in a Stoic sense. Industrialization would however compromise Nature, our Nature, if via industrialization we were not living with an awareness of our interconnection with the entire universe. This would come down to Marcus Aurelius’ famous “cosmic view”. If when industrializing we were acting rationally and virtuously by always being conscious of the entire universe and our roles in that whole, then industrialization might be in accordance with our Nature. Industrialization does not seemingly happen that way however, suggesting that it is in conflict with our Nature.
SD: To help Stoa organizers engage more people in philosophy, I always ask authors and teachers: what piece of Stoicism resonates most with audiences, in your opinion?
WJ: The discussion of what we can versus cannot control will always probably give Stoicism its largest public audience. Given how it speaks to themes of self-help and personal development, it has contributed significantly to the 21st-century popularization of Stoic philosophy. I have found a real public resonance though with the topic of cosmopolitanism. Its insight that every one of us belongs to a singular worldly community appeals to audiences wanting to explore Stoicism more thoroughly. I sense that many people are fatigued by the constant rhetoric around the supposedly inherent divisions between humans according to territory, demography, and ideology. A cosmopolitan view provides an antidote. It reminds us that before all the contingent human arrangements of ourselves into different geographical and conceptual quarters, we are fundamentally similar and mutually bound. I will be exploring the collegial and universal sense of the self that Stoicism offers, in a course that I am teaching through the Melbourne School of Continental Philosophy in the coming weeks.
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An Interview with Pete Fagella
The Stoic Fellowship is very pleased to offer this interview with Pete Fagella, who is the President of the New England Stoics, a Boston based Stoa. He also serves on the board of directors of The Stoic Fellowship. In that capacity, he has been Chairman of Stoicon X committee, Regional Support Volunteer for the Northeast United States, and has been active in several other committees. He is the father of two boys, 12 and 15, and is employed as an Electronics Technician.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics and Editor of Indifferents Quarterly)
PF = Pete Fagella
SD: What Stoic group do you organize, how often do you meet, and where is it located?
PF: I am the president of the New England Stoics. We were founded in 2018 as a collection of individuals from all around the region. I personally live in NH now, when I reached out to the fellowship, they had told me that not many people in NH had expressed interest at the time in becoming part of a Stoic group. I had asked them if anybody in Massachusetts within an hour of Boston had expressed interest and there were quite a few. I was given their contact information and we had our first meeting in Newburyport, MA, because one of us lived in that town and had an unreliable vehicle for long distances.
For a while, we would try new locations, trying to cover the entire region. At one point as we began to grow, we would alternate between Cambridge, MA and Lowell, MA, and those two points seemed to have promising feedback from members. Eventually, though, our meeting location in Cambridge closed down and the Lowell crowd began to dwindle, so we looked elsewhere. Now, we mostly meet in Boston, usually in the North End section of the city, but not always. For example, on occasion we’ll meet in a park or the library. We have developed an affection for this little café in the North End called the Thinking Cup. We are often recognized by this one elderly man who always comes up to us and joins in the conversation, often interrupting us to tell us random stories and share random recipes. He is very sweet. Pre-COVID, we were meeting every two weeks.
SD: What discussion topics are popular in your group?
PF: This was a challenge we had to endure in the beginning, as most of us, including myself, were only novices in the subject matter. Initially we would have single topics that would be the focus of the meeting. All sorts of topics ranging from “what is good” to each of the four virtues; we discussed death, coping mechanizing, resilience, friendship. Often the motivation for the topic was based on the previous topic, but sometimes it would just be what we were curious about that month.
We noticed though that often the conversation would go off the rails and, eventually, we were discussing a topic which did not at all relate to our topic. So, the dilemma was this: how do we maintain order in our meetings, while at the same time encourage curiosity and free thinking? The answer was the Philosophers Café. This style of meeting would have no set topic. Instead we would act as a way for Stoics and would-be Stoics to get to know each other, and learn from each other. We encouraged free thought. Naturally, several independent conversations would take place, and people would stay for hours.
We still wanted to have structure, however, in our meetings. Having borrowed some material from the NYC Stoics, we created our own practice class. The class would be held every four weeks, with the Philosophers Café two weeks before and two weeks after. The class follows a rigid academic focus on Stoicism and how to practice this philosophy. The Philosophers Café encourages free thought and open conversation.
In addition to these two primary meeting types we have recently begun to have weekly mediation sessions. Once a week, we sit for about two minutes. We also have meditative journaling an hour proceeding each class and Philosophers Café. A typical four-week month will have one Philosophers Café, one practice class, four sitting meditation sessions, and two journaling meditation sessions. In the future, we are hoping to expand further to increase our social activities, to strengthen the bonds between us.
SD: Are you meeting virtually now and using what tools?
PF: In March, we had a wonderful meeting at our usual spot in the North End of Boston. When the meeting had ended, the leadership team decided that we would continue to spend some time together. We got lunch at this amazing corner restaurant named Dino’s and walked around the city. We came up with some great activities for the upcoming meetings and even went to the top of a free observation tower overlooking the seaport, where we took a group photo. We discussed COVID and were relatively unconcerned at the time, as none of us were high-risk. We had no idea what was about to happen. We had no idea that this would be the last time we met in person for a long time.
Within a week of this meeting, the news started to suggest guidelines as to how to protect ourselves. All of us, having come across the information independently, came to the conclusion that the plans that we had from a week earlier would have to be put on hold. We would have to go virtual, something we had only once done before.
Our only experience with a virtual meeting was when the leadership team watched “The Big Lebowski”, a few of our officers pushed the idea that the dude was the ultimate Stoic and wanted to show the rest of us. We had some technical difficulties but ultimately figured it out. This was fortunate because when we took all of our meeting into the virtual work for COVID, we understood what we were doing.
Our first Zoom meeting was exclusively about COVID. We wanted to help others cope as Stoics. One of our regular members was in Italy at the time, which at that moment was the hardest country being hit. We got to speak with him about how things were on the streets. I think it helped prepare some of us for what we would have to endure several months later. I know it helped me. Following this meeting we went back to our regular format (although meditation was first introduced during the Zoom sessions).
Zoom has been wonderful to us. We are able to connect with members who moved away, and others who weren’t previously able to attend the in-person meetings. Zoom has been so successful that we decided our practice classes will remain on Zoom even after the pandemic (easier with PowerPoint).
SD: In your opinion, is there a single book / concept / story that engages people best as newcomers to Stoicism?
PF: I really like Letters from a Stoic by Seneca. The letters that are being referred-to are one-side of a two-sided conversation between Seneca and his friend. They do not show the friend’s letters to Seneca, however, you are able to infer what is being said as Seneca often repeats it. Essentially the friend is always asking Seneca advice on one topic or another. Seneca, being the established Stoic, is happy to help and, in a very affectionate way, tries to give the best Stoic advise he can.
I like this book, because it is meant to be casual. His friend is presumably not a Stoic and is trying to learn to become one by consulting his dear friend. You can put yourself in many of the situations that the friend is experiencing and gain perspective. It’s great for a beginner.
Another good book is Meditations, although I would offer a word of caution. Meditations were random thoughts written down as the thoughts appeared, and the book was written as a journal and not meant for public view. Consequently, there is no order to the thoughts and it can be a bit confusing, if you are trying to understand concepts. The thoughts, however, are easy to read and provide nice little pieces of random, but helpful information.
SD: Let’s discuss your Stoic camp experiences over the years. What activities were good learning experiences and built community?
PF: Well, I should be clear that we have only had one Stoic camp in our group. We had planned to have another one this year but COVID put a damper on those plans. However, we did have a wonderful time and had plenty of activities. We wanted to make sure that we had plenty of time for both recreation and education.
The focus of our group was entirely on Epictetus. We read all of his Discourses, and I personally gave some historical context. We held the camp at a cabin in northern Maine, near some really spectacular waterfalls and several easy hikes. We listened to several podcasts and had dinner together every night. The group nearly fell apart though when, during a board game of Risk, I was betrayed by who I thought was my ally. Good thing for Stoic perspective.
In the last day of the camp, we began a tradition, and the end of every major event, we silently sit for one minute. At the end of the minute, a timer goes off, and we all scream a mighty roar.
SD: Which authors have you read over time (ancient or modern)? Also, do you like any “semi-Stoic” authors?
PF: My group could answer this question for you. I have bothered them enough with my constant quoting of Cicero. If you can imagine how the most beautiful art would appear, as if it came from words, it would be the works of Cicero. There are so many works that Cicero has created, and I love them all. However, most of them were more political than philosophical. He addresses this, saying he wished he had more time to dedicate to philosophy, but his responsibilities prevented it.
With regards to philosophy, two of his works come to mind: On Friendship, and On Duties. On Friendship is an elegant treatise on the value of being a friend, along with the expectations and obligations of friendship. On Duties is much more involved. On Duties was created as a moral guideline to his son Marcus. It is composed of three books and discusses what is honorable, what is advantageous, and what to do if what is advantageous conflicts with what is honorable.
Cicero gives credit to the Stoics when he feels it is appropriate. However, he does not always agree and will cite other schools when that is the case. He was a brilliant man during one of the most profound and influential periods in human history. Highly recommend any and all of his works.
SD: What elements of Stoicism connect to your life experiences?
PF: I actually found Stoicism by accident in a very serendipitous situation. I have always had a passion for history. Specifically, the late republican/early imperial Roman period. I would buy a book about a particular topic, while reading another topic gets mentioned as a side note and the following book, then I would purchase what’s in the side note.
I was reading a book about Hadrian, and one chapter was introduced with several pages about Stoicism. I was going through the worst part of a divorce and custody battle at the time, so the prospect of coming out of that with a sense of peace was very enticing.
Incidentally, it took considerably longer to start to understand the precepts of Stoicism, but this was the beginning of my journey. I have since used Stoicism to guide me through other tough times. Everything from relationship issues to dealing with bad weather, and so many other challenges in life.
SD: How do you promote your Stoic group now?
PF: Although we have a Facebook page and our own web site, the primary means of promoting my group is on Meetup. In our first attempt at creating a web page, we had limited but notable attendance. However, once we went onto Meetup, we had a considerable uptick in attendance. In fact, of the current officer corps of my group found us through Meetup.
Joining the board of directors on the Stoic Fellowship has helped a lot as well. I am now a lot more involved in a lot of larger projects. I usually get the chance to promote my group in passing while in the capacity. I think I’m promoting my group right now during this interview!
SD: What technology tools do you use to support your group?
PF: We have a Twitter account, Instagram, Facebook, Meetup, and our own web page www.nestoics.org. We also have a mailing list that is slowly being populated. We hope to utilize it in the near future, once we have more time after Stoicon-X which has taken up a considerable amount of our time. Zoom has also been instrumental to us. We now have a greater reach, and with screen sharing, we can create very easy presentations.
An Interview with Piotr Stankiewicz
The Stoic Fellowship is very pleased to offer this interview with Piotr Stankiewicz. We discussed his new book “Manual of Reformed Stoicism”, which helps to modernize many Stoic concepts. He is also author of another Stoic book “Does Happiness Write Blank Pages?”, and he has organized lightning-talks at Stoicon-X Toronto 2017 and Stoicon-X Athens 2019. We hope you’ll share these ideas with your friends and in discussion groups.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics and Editor of Indifferents Quarterly)
PS = Piotr Stankiewicz
SD: Thanks for sharing your time with us. In the Introduction to your new book “Manual of Reformed Stoicism”, you talk about how this philosophy helps us find happiness and follow virtue, but also how to seize opportunities when they arrive. Is this book aimed at millennials or business startups? Or perhaps a general audience (anyone seeking to add philosophy to their life)?
PS: First of all — thanks for having me. I’m very happy (unstoically?) that we can talk about the book. I will tell you this: my book is aimed at everyone who wants to read it. Just as you said: general audience, anyone who wants to “add some philosophy to their life” (fine phrase, by the way). This “adding some philosophy” translates, with Stoicism, into adding happiness to life, making the life better. That’s a given.
The millennials and the startup folks can benefit from Stoicism just as anyone else can. One of the key messages here is inclusivity: Stoicism is for everyone. For young people and for senior citizens. For the privileged and the disprivileged. For the rich and for those… well, those who are trying to get rich. The latter includes the startup industry, I believe. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that reformed Stoicism is particularly for them or “for millennials.” It’s for everyone, just as it has always been.
About this “seize opportunities” thing — it doesn’t refer to business opportunities. What I meant by the phrase is that we, as the human race in general, face new opportunities (and challenges!) in the 21st century. Technology, progress, science and politics bring them about. And we need a reformed version of Stoicism to deal with them.
SD: In Chapter 1, you include a quote from Seneca: “What shall we say of the fact that the greater part of the things which enrage us are insults, not injuries.” Although Seneca did not foresee the Internet, he offered a wisdom that has lasted almost 2,000 years! Today, many headlines and social media posts are designed to enrage people — who live in a cycle of endless anger. How can Stoicism help them step back and find tranquility once more?
PS: “Social media posts are designed to enrage people,” that’s true! And it’s even more true when you change one letter and say that they are designed to engage people. That holds not just for specific posts on social media but for the entire system. Social media (but traditional media too!) benefit from keeping people engaged and the more controversial and clickbait-ish the content is the better. That’s the obvious problem of our civilization in the first half of the 21st century. We are facing and entire system which makes money by keeping us agitated.
Of course, the ancient Stoics didn’t — and couldn’t — foresee this. But their message holds. The core problem is basically the same. As an individual, I’m trying to live a good and happy life. The rest of the world, including other people, and particularly their posts on social media, aren’t really interested in keeping me happy. Thus, I need to fight for my own. I need to try to live stoically despite all that others throw at me. And despite what they post.
On the other hand — and I guess we agree on this one — Internet and social media can be used to spread the Stoic message. Stoicism has always been highly adaptable and it can thrive online. Social media can be reclaimed (to an extent) and used to our purpose. And this is happening! There are plenty of fanpages and groups devoted to Stoicism. I’m trying to do my part too.
SD: Your next chapter is devoted to dropping useless narratives in our lives. This reminds me of a similar societal movement, called “unlearning”. Tell us some Stoic methods for dropping these narratives and increasing happiness in our lives.
PS: “Unlearning” is not really the concept I had in mind but it indeed sounds fitting. Indeed, one of the gateways to Stoicism is to realize that facts, things and events, external things, in short, do not define our life and our capability to be happy and/or miserable. We define it ourselves: through the way we think. In Marcus Aurelius’ book, “way we think” was dubbed the conceptions. In reformed Stoicism I believe the best way to put it is to speak about narratives.
A narrative is a good term for precisely the reason you mention. A narrative requires a narrator, i.e. us. We, in the most literal sense, tell the story to ourselves. This realization is quite empowering, isn’t it? I mean, the conception, as in original Stoicism, was something much more “objective,” and thus imposed upon us. With a narrative I’m much more in control. I can, just as you say, drop the narrative and start developing another. That control will never be easy, heck, it might still be hard as hell, but to realize that we are responsible for that voice in our head which “tells the story” — it’s the crucial first step. Kind of a liberating moment, isn’t it?
When it comes to the specific methods for dropping useless narratives (i.e. the ones that make us miserable and disempower us), well, there are plenty of them and they are in a way tailored to each of us individually. For instance, for my own use, a while back I embraced this trick that whenever something adverse happens then you need to challenge yourself to tell three positive things about it. Sounds silly… but it works. And it works because our mind is actually quite silly. If you force a specific way of thinking upon yourself you will soon find yourself believing in that. The whole point then is about imposing positive and empowering narratives on yourself.
SD: Epictetus is famous for teaching what’s in our control and not. Your Chapter 3 opens with a modern description of this concept, and I liked your description of what’s in our control — including our attitude towards other people and events. This is timely for people struggling with the pressures of the Coronavirus pandemic. The news is full of headlines about people suffering in other cities and countries, plus the government is issuing new rules weekly. Once we recognize the pandemic is not under our control, what are a few other Stoic tips for keeping us calm in this storm?
PS: Just as I state in the book, I believe that few things are timeless. Ideas age and erode, the cultural contexts change. But in the very short rank of things that are truly unchanged over time there is the Stoic idea of the great division of things. Some of them are in our control and some aren’t. This holds in reformed Stoicism just as it held in antiquity.
As a reformed Stoic, though, my take is that we need to focus on three prospects mostly. First, the set of values I intend to uphold in my life. Second, the list of goals I’m shooting at. Third, the general direction in which I want to shape my character. The covid pandemic is a perfect (though sad) occasion to explain the first two of them.
The lockdown situation (in my case for example) is one in which we are unable to pursue many of our goals and projects. I can’t teach my students in class, nor can I hang with my friends in person. I can’t go on a vacation, and I miss a number of work opportunities too. There is a great deal of things I just need to disregard for the time being.
What’s left? The whole point is that there is always something left. The pandemic situation makes me unable to do some things. True. But, as a Stoic, I simply refocus on the values and goals I can work up in this crazy time. I still can try to be a good father. I still can try to stay sharp and collected. I still can try to be patient and resilient. And on the practical level too. I can’t go out and teach, but I can sit down and work on the next book. I can’t go play football with my friends, but I can do push-ups in my apartment. And so on and on. Having my list of values and goals fresh and always up-to-date is an insurance policy which makes me immune to a crunch time. This keeps me calm and productive. More than that, I believe this is what keeps us sane.
So, just to recap. My values and goals are within my power to change. I can shape them however I want. And I can craft it in a sure-fire way. If I do it properly, well, come hell or high water, I will always have some values and goals to pursue. There is hardly a disaster potent enough to deprive me of all of them. This is what we do and how we think as reformed Stoics.
SD: In Chapter 5, you remind the reader that Stoicism is not merely about being rational and logical. It’s also important to stay focused and follow your purpose. This means living “deliberately”, a word that often reminds me of Henry David Thoreau, who said “I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately…” How can people find their purpose, using philosophy or otherwise? Both young adults and seniors sometimes attend Stoic groups to resolve this important question.
PS: It seems to me that most of what you ask I answered already in the previous one. But the deeper truth, I think, is that reformed Stoicism is much more “liberal” (excuse the word!) than its ancient counterpart was. The specific purpose of your own life you must define on our own. Reformed Stoicism doesn’t impose much on you. It doesn’t say “do this, do that.” It’s just a different game, on a different level.
Reformed Stoicism offers you sort of a guidance platform to develop your projects, character and life overall. This platform empowers you with certain rationality, self-awareness about what you control and what you don’t. It provides a good vantage point on others and on the world in general. It also calibrates you on what “purpose” even means. Just as we discussed earlier. But the whole point is that your own private purpose you need to find out on your own. Scratch that, you need to create it on your own. You set it up yourself, for yourself.
SD: Stoicism also teaches us not to worry about the past or future. When you discuss this topic in Chapter 6, I liked how succinctly you put it: that the past cannot be changed, and the future is essentially unknown. For many new Stoics, this is a great starting point to introduce the practical side of our philosophy. Can you tell us a little more about avoiding the worry associated with the past and future?
PS: The present moment is the only working plug-in we have. The past is not within our power, actually it is within no one’s power. The past is the ultimate not-in-our-control thing. We can change absolutely nothing about it and no one can. Worrying about past events, worrying in the I-wish-it-had-gone-the-other-way is ultimately nonstoic. Woulda-shoulda-coulda of every ilk and hue is nonstoic.
The same holds for the future of course. Just as the phrase goes, the past is already gone, the future is not yet here. Worrying about either is pointless. It is also deeply counterproductive. I need to check in to the present moment and work through it. Anything else is basically self-harm. And true, that’s one of the starting points of Stoicism. My life is accessible to me only through the present moment. Now is the only time I can try to be a Stoic. All else is… well, all else isn’t. The past is already gone, the future isn’t here.
SD: The popular quote, “carpe diem”, is often repeated, and yet the meaning has faded. People probably have a simplistic idea of what it means. However, in Chapter 8, you explain very well what Seneca meant in his book “On the Shortness of Life”. Give us some snapshots on how people waste their time on Earth, instead of using their lives fully to be creative and purposeful.
PS: I know all about it, for I waste a ton of time myself. This is a truly vicious cycle: you waste time, then you realize how much you have wasted and that realization keeps you wasting even more. After all, what’s the point of trying to do something productive only now, if I have wasted so much time so far? That’s really debilitating trap — been there, done that.
And more than just “done that”. Speaking personally, this is one of the points that has really drawn me to Stoicism. I just wish I had been exposed to it earlier in life — I could have saved much more time! But, as mentioned before, any such wish is per se nonstoic. Here we are then!
An Interview with Eric Scott
The Stoic Fellowship is very pleased to offer this interview with Eric Scott. He is the founder of Stoics in Action and an active member of the Stoic Fellowship of Washington, D.C. Eric shared with us many interesting concepts that help teach Stoicism to others, plus many Stoic-related topics that help start discussions in groups.
DL = Dan Lampert (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics and Editor of Indifferents Quarterly)
ES = Eric Scott
DL: Thanks for sharing your time with us, Eric. What are the three basic goals of your group “Stoics in Action”?
ES: Hi Dan — Stoics in Action is a group we set up to emphasize and develop the active and pro-social side of a Stoic life. Stoicism is famous today as a strategy for emotional coping and resilience, but its core moral message is less well-known: moderns often mistake Stoicism for a “do-nothing” philosophy, or even for a sort of narcissistic focus on avoiding discomfort at all costs. I think this stereotype is actually a modern invention: in the ancient world, Stoicism had much the opposite reputation, and many of us today find a rich and urgent call to moral action and to compassion in the tradition.
The operative metaphor in the ancient texts is the Choice of Hercules: given a choice between a selfish road with no pain and a difficult road that benefits humanity (so the story goes), Hercules chose the painful path. We should strive to be like Hercules.
Stoics in Action approaches this mission from three angles:
* To show the world by example that — contrary to popular belief — Stoicism is an active, affectionate, philanthropic, and politically engaged way of life.
* To provide a forum for contemporary Stoics to develop and refine their approach to social life in six key domains: family, career, service, politics, the environment, and intersectional identities.
* To provide a nexus for Stoics to organize joint philanthropic projects, and/or to share tips and resources on how to get involved with service.
DL: Stoic group organizers are always looking for interesting topics that can start discussions. A couple years back, you wrote an article discussing the similarities between Stoicism and Hinduism. How would you summarize that today?
ES: We often like to talk about how Stoicism is a “perennial philosophy,” don’t we? I enjoy finding common themes between Stoicism and other traditions, and a litany of passages from the Upanishads couldn’t help but jump out at me when I read them — especially the notion of “detached action,” and of maintaining inner peace and purpose without becoming uncaring. Both traditions teach us that what is inside really matters, but also hasten to add that external things still have a kind of value that demands our attention and action.
But the really cool thing about looking for connections to other traditions is the conversations that it enables me to have. I love sitting down with a relative from India, a friend with a Buddhist background, or with my protestant Christian family here in the United States and talking about what tradition means in our lives. My background in Stoicism gives me a new way of communicating with people: when my father relates some trial he’s going through to a story from the Bible, I can tell the story of Zeno being shipwrecked and losing everything he owned, or invoke a Stoic idea like the dichotomy of control or the importance of being self-forgiving. People find it interesting to hear rich tidbits like that from a little-known tradition like Stoicism, and I learn by hearing about how people apply other traditions to situations in their life.
It’s easy to get carried away looking for similarities, of course. Traditions have hundreds or thousands of moving parts, so to speak — and much like spoken languages, just because they have dozens of similarities doesn’t mean that they are mutually intelligible (consider English and German!). So it’s important to acknowledge differences too. But especially on the level of face-to-face conversations, I’ve found it powerful to highlight specific points of common ground.
DL: In your web site’s blog, did some of the articles get more attention than others? I’m looking for good material that Stoic groups can discuss in their meetings?
ES: Our most-visited page tends to be the Stoics in Action Reading List, which collects links to over a hundred posts and papers by modern Stoics on everything from parenting to political activism.
This year our authors have contributed Stoic perspectives on hot-button issues like Brexit, Feminism, and the Yellow Vest movement. My sense, though, is that it’s actually easier to get people to talk about big political issues than about the nitty-gritty of applying virtue to our family lives and careers: we view Stoic action as filling all levels of the Circles of Hierocles. In that sense, Charmika Stewart’s essay “Ode to Friendship” is just as important to Stoic action as more political posts!
DL: Last year, you published a Stoic reading list, which included the names of Massimo Pigliucci and Donald Robertson. They are two of the most visible writers on Stoicism today. How do you feel their writings are contributing to the Modern Stoicism movement?
ES: You know, I’ve just started learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as a newbie to martial arts, and I’m going through that phase where friends and family are asking “what’s it like?,” “how is it different from wrestling?,” “what if someone came at you with a knife?,” “does Jiu-Jitsu teach you how to handle someone much bigger than you?,” and worst of all — “what would you do if I did THIS!” Alasdair MacIntyre (who helped revive virtue ethics in the 20th century) had this idea that being able to answer questions like this is what it means to learn a tradition. The problem is that it can take a really long time to learn the answers to these questions (I’m really bad at Jiu-Jitsu questions — and boy did I get owned at my last open mat!).
We all go through the same phase with Stoicism: “what is Stoicism about?,” “how is it different from pessimism?,” “is it self-centered?,” “how does a Stoic make love?,” “does Epictetus really mean it when he tells us not to laugh heartily?,” “do I have to believe in Marcus Aurelius’s gods to follow Stoicism?,” “is it Stoic to enjoy music?,” “would a Stoic be an activist?” If we don’t get answers to these questions quickly, it’s easy to get turned off and give up (that bit about Epictetus and laughing kept me far away from Stoicism for years). As celebrated as the Roman Stoics are for their literary quality, I think they bury the lede on a lot of really important topics that balance out their way of life: like what healthy emotions look like, how action intersects with the dichotomy of control, or how moral aspiration is at the heart of why Stoics do what they do. And to be honest, most questions about Stoic tradition are best answered by Cicero. Newcomers rarely read Cicero.
What I love about authors like Pigliucci and Robertson is that they collect most of these little jewels that make Stoicism a cohesive and well-motivated way of life. Then they lay them out for us in a quick-paced and page-turning presentation. They’ve read Cicero and much, much more — and they can sit us down and explain in short order not just the dichotomy of control and the Inner Citadel, but other powerful metaphors like the shipwreck of Zeno, the Stoic Archer, the Choice of Hercules, and the Circles of Hierocles. We can learn up front about how the discipline of our emotions is just one part of a wider Stoic world view that emphasizes excellence, and how when Stoics advise against “emotion,” they’re actually only talking about a small (unhealthy) fraction of our natural emotional life.
Pigliucci, Robertson, et al.’s interpretations aren’t without their dissidents, of course (I find Chris Fisher’s countering school of “Traditional Stoicism” endlessly intriguing), but I think they fill a very important niche in teaching us common folk “How to Be a Stoic” — one that isn’t easy to find in more scholarly books, nor in more lightweight books like Ryan Holidays’. They’ve also done a great deal of work to develop Stoicism as a community and a living tradition — one that goes on to answer new questions that the ancients never would have considered (like “what do Stoic principles have to say about taking an Uber? Or going vegan?”).
DL: How can we overturn the myth that Stoics are quiet/detached/anti-social? Further, how can Stoics take action in society, justice, and even politics?
ES: By example. We can argue all we want that prominent critics of Stoicism (like Edith Hall or Martha Nussbaum) have misunderstood the ancient texts or emphasized the wrong things. But theoretical rebuttals aren’t the half of it: I think it’s a more powerful to be able to say “hey, look at all these ways that real-life modern Stoics are drawing on their philosophy to motivate positive action in the world!” Kai Whiting’s recent essay “Stoics are Already Standing Up” is a good example of a piece that hits both approaches at once.
In practice, though, I think Stoic action has to start with a habit of creative reflection: there are a thousand and one possible answers to the question “what would it mean for me to practice virtue and benevolence today?,” and the possibilities can be overwhelming. I find that that Circles of Hierocles helps: we can think of our duties as stretching from ourselves outward in successive layers that we can treat one at a time — “what would it mean for me to be a good husband/brother/son, friend, citizen, and employee today?”
Some of the answers personal and private: one of the first ways I put Stoicism into practice, for example, was by keeping a birthday calendar and mailing cards to close friends and family. That struck me as a natural way to live out Stoic death meditation — if we are all going to die, then I’d better invest in what matters! The ancients suggest several little practices like this: Seneca portrays physical exercise as having moral value (if nothing else, my wife has one less reason to worry about my health!), and Epictetus once had to remind his students that good personal hygiene is part of the practice of virtue!
After that, we have friendships and community service. Again, lots of options here — for me, the first challenge is simply getting involved: you can’t be a good friend if you never call your friends, and you can’t engage positively in the community if you aren’t part of any local clubs, churches, or civic groups. The idea that “civil society” is what connects healthy communities together is all the rage among pundits these days: even something like a Jiu Jitsu class or an astronomy club is exactly the sort of thing that builds bonds with people in your area, and ultimately allows us to help one another.
I think Stoic Fellowship chapters can fill a really important role here. A group of local Stoics that meet together is an excellent basis from which to start looking for positive service projects or philanthropic causes — or, yes, engagement in local politics.
Political causes are trickier, of course. Stoicism is compatible with both left-leaning and right-leaning political viewpoints, and modern Stoics will (and should!) disagree among themselves on politics. The Stoic world view does sketch out a few general principles (like the equality of all human beings, and a non-retributive approach to criminal justice), but each individual or small group will have to exercise their best judgement and decide how best to get politically involved.
For me, that’s meant participating in local Better Angels groups, which aim to reduce political polarization in the United States. But other Stoic friends of mine have applied virtue ethics to motivate their participation in climate change research, Black Lives Matter protests, LGBT rights events, pro-Brexit activities, and the Tea Party here in the U.S. These are turbulent waters! But a Stoic aims to draw on their reservoir of inner resilience, so that they can maintain their compassion and their resolve as they work on daunting and hot-button problems that face society.
DL: Sometimes, the world is negatively toxic, and Stoicism is good for dealing with this. However, once you described something called “positively toxic” in an article about social justice. Can you explain how a Stoic can be positively toxic?
ES: Well, I didn’t mean “positively toxic” as a complement! My argument was that Stoicism can be (and has been) abused to justify pointing fingers at groups of people who are suffering, and blaming them for their own unhappiness — while ignoring the responsibility that we all have to work toward a just and equitable society. Logically, “externals don’t matter to Happiness” can be the first step of an argument that ends with “so you shouldn’t complain if I abuse you and take things from you!”
All the leading figures of the modern Stoic movement (including Bill Irvine, who I was debating with in that piece) agree that that kind of logic is a perversion of Stoicism. Experts know (even if the world does not) that Stoicism also emphasizes Justice and working toward improving people’s external situation alongside the internal one. But I think that we need to put emphasis on this fact, and present Stoicism is a philosophy of both internal resilience and external benevolent action. If we make the same mistake as Epictetus, and bury the lede on Stoicism’s original moral message, we weaken Stoicism’s ability to be a positive force in the world. Invulnerability by itself is an amoral goal.
DL: Some people are applying Stoicism to relationships and family issues. What concepts are important for solving family-related conflict and stress?
ES: This is a popular topic of discussion at our Stoic Fellowship group here in Washington — family is a big testing ground for Stoic coping techniques! I’m far from qualified to offer real advice on family systems (there are a number of modern Stoic bloggers who can speak about applying Stoicism to parenting, for example!), but I do think that Stoicism has a number of powerful ideas to offer.
The one that our Fellowship members often come back to is non-anger: getting control of your anger toward family can be a daunting task even under normal circumstances, and it’s even harder if your loved ones have a genuine tendency toward pathological or manipulative behavior. At least two of our members felt like getting control of their own anger a couple years ago, and it made a tremendous difference in their home and professional lives. One of my favorite notions here is Epictetus’s “two-handle metaphor,” which reminds us that we always have a choice between a healthy and an unhealthy response when others aggravate us (Massimo Pigliucci wrote a nice post on this on last year.
Two other Stoic ideas that I find powerful for conflict resolution are 1) its insistence that people do wrong out of ignorance, and 2) its gentle interpretation of Socratic dialogue as a highly no-coercive form of debate. These are things I tried to practice when navigating religious and political differences with friends and family — I’ve written about them and some other Stoic principles in a political context here.
I will also add that one of the most beautiful and daunting challenges (that I know of) in all of the Stoic literature is Seneca’s notion (in On Benefits) that we should aspire to pay such close attention to the people in our lives that we can benefit them before they even ask for our help, or before they even realize that they are in need. This is an extremely high bar to meet for benevolence, but even getting 10% of the way there can make a huge impact.
DL: Returning to your group, “Stoics in Action”, leave us with some ideas on how new Stoics can improve their practice.
ES: Behavioral change is hard. My main advice is to keep coming back to that image of the Circles of Hierocles and your various roles, and thinking about ways to improve your practice of the four virtues. You are the one who’s in the best position to see opportunities to cultivate Justice, Benevolence, Good Calculation, Orderliness, Fair-Dealing, Reliableness, and other virtues in your life.
But, operationally, the best tool I know of for self improvement is to follow Epictetus’s advice to shoot for success 30 days in a row. You can track them with check marks on paper, but today we have fancy smart phone apps that make habit tracking easy: choose one to three new virtuous habits you want to form, define them in terms of a S.M.A.R.T. goal (simple, measurable, action-oriented, realistic, and time-bound), then download Habit Bull (for Android) or Streaks (on iOS), and hold yourself accountable!
An Interview with Brittany Polat
This quarter, The Stoic Fellowship had the pleasure of interviewing Brittany Polat, a Stoic author and blogger who explores how Stoicism can help us lead a better life. Her blog is called Apparent Stoic, and you can find her latest book, Tranquility Parenting, on Amazon.
SD = StoicDan (Organizer of Orlando Stoics and Editor of Indifferents Quarterly)
BP = Brittany Polat
SD: Thanks for joining us, Brittany. Let’s start with your book, Tranquility Parenting. In chapter 1, you quote William Irvine by saying if we don’t think clearly about our philosophy of life, we run the risk of “misliving.” Can you explain that more and tell us why you wrote your book?
BP: I came to Stoicism at a time when I was feeling quite down about my life, and Stoic philosophy really helped me turn it around. I wanted to help bring these principles to a new audience who might not normally pick up a book on philosophy. In A Guide to the Good Life, Irvine does a great job of explaining why all of us — in the face of modern distractions and lifestyle options — should interest ourselves in a philosophy of life. I find his ideas on “misliving” to be very convincing, especially since I experienced the misery of not having a coherent life philosophy for a long time. I think it’s something many people can relate to. Also, many parents are already familiar with the idea of a parenting philosophy. Ironically, our culture encourages parents to develop a philosophy for parenting without having an overall philosophy of life, which seems completely backwards! We will be much happier and more successful (as people and parents) if our parenting philosophy and life philosophy support each other. So in Tranquility Parenting, I help readers think through their priorities, and then we go over ways to make sure our actions match up to our principles and priorities. It’s not the little details that matter so much in your child’s life, but the big picture of who you are and how you act. I think we
should be focusing primarily on our big-picture beliefs and becoming role models for our children. If we get that right, the details will fall into place.
SD: Your book also covers parenting solutions that might be called mindfulness or another belief system. Did you pull from other areas besides Stoicism?
BP: I draw on other wisdom traditions in some of my other writing, but for the book I wanted to stick with Stoic sources. In addition to Stoic mindfulness, we look at how Stoicism can help alleviate the anxiety and guilt that many parents feel, as well as how to genuinely enjoy the time you spend with your child. Most people don’t think about Stoicism as a way of deepening your love for those around you, but in my experience that’s what it does. When you develop the proper outlook on life, your negative emotions sort of dry up and leave much more space for love, affection, and enjoyment. This is true whether you have children or not. As a Stoic, the world seems like a more benign place, and you increase your capacity for cheerfulness and other positive emotions.
SD: When people ask you for Stoic advice (whether they are a new parent or not) what early Stoic concepts do you share with them?
BP: If someone has never heard of Stoicism, I often tell them it’s a framework for making good decisions about life: it helps you figure out what is important and then apply that understanding every day in every part of your life. As a result, you become a much happier and more effective person. For those who are already familiar with basic Stoic concepts, I like to discuss oikeiosis, which in Greek means something like familiarization or appropriation. It’s basically the lifelong process of shifting from an egocentric view of your life to a virtue-centric view. The ancient Stoics said that we all start out as children with a desire to preserve ourselves, so we instinctively seek food, protection, social approval, and other things that will ensure our survival and comfort. It’s an unfortunate fact of life that some people grow older but never grow out of this stage. But if we mature appropriately, we gradually start to understand that bodily preservation is not our most important task in life. We realize that we are just one small part of a larger whole, and our true task is to act in a way that benefits the whole. When the process of oikeiosis is complete, we will feel true kinship with everyone and everything around us. The wonderful thing is that usually when we think and act in this way, we become much happier and more fulfilled. So Stoic philosophy provides the mental tools for us to grow in wisdom, virtue, and contentment throughout our lives.
SD: When you interact with people online, which platforms are popular for people with Stoic-related questions? I’ve seen a lot of activity on Facebook, Twitter and Reddit, but I’m interested in your view.
BP: I would encourage people who are beginning to learn about Stoicism to reach out directly to Stoic bloggers, authors, and podcasters. One great thing about our current Stoic movement is that there’s content out there for all interests and levels, from beginner to expert. Look around for blogs, podcasts, or YouTube channels you like, and comment on an article or ask the author a question about their ideas. If you’re brand new, a great place to start is the Stoicism Today blog on the Modern Stoicism page. Most Stoics are very helpful and are happy to answer people’s questions about Stoicism. (Just make sure your question or comment is relevant to the content that’s being discussed.) I also find Twitter useful for staying up-to-date with new books, interesting topics, and events from around the Stoic community. I’m happy to answer people’s questions on Twitter (@brittanypolat) or on my blog (www.apparentstoic.com).
SD: From which other authors are you reading lately? They could be Modern Stoics, like Massimo Pigliucci, or authors from other topics?
BP: I’m always re-reading the classics — if I’m having a bad day, I go read some Epictetus and he helps me snap out of it! Pierre Hadot is another essential author I find myself returning to over and over again. (Try Philosophy as a Way of Life or What is Ancient Philosophy?) But reading more broadly about other wisdom traditions, such as Confucianism and Buddhism, has really enhanced my understanding and practice of Stoicism. Intelligent people from many cultures and eras have given thought to many of the same problems we face today, and we can apply their insights to our Stoic practice. Even if you believe, as I do, that Stoicism is the best framework for living a philosophical
life, we should remember there is never just one right way to do things. Philosophy is not a zero-sum game. I think learning about other traditions keeps things in perspective and helps keep us be humble about our own points of view.
SD: Do you often return to some basic Stoic principles (e.g. the cardinal values or negative visualization) in your writing and thinking?
BP: Absolutely. What I’ve found is that having more technical knowledge about Stoicism doesn’t make you a better Stoic; what makes you a better Stoic is having an iron grasp of the core principles. It’s not that theory isn’t important — it is definitely important — but it’s not the final destination. Stoicism is ultimately a lived philosophy rather than simply a theoretical philosophy, so we have to really internalize basic Stoic ideas about wisdom and virtue. During those times when you need your philosophy most — frustration, hardship, illness, bereavement — you need to have such a firm grip on these principles that they never leave you. To me, this is both the ultimate goal and the ultimate challenge of living a Stoic life: how do we adopt these principles so completely that they become a part of who we are? Most of my writing centers on this question. Fortunately, both ancient and modern Stoics provide us with many exercises and techniques to make this happen. It’s not easy, but I would encourage everyone who starts down the Stoic path to keep persevering with your practice even when you feel like you’re not making progress. Developing wisdom is a lifelong process, and sometimes you will feel like you’ve hit a plateau. When that happens, try to dig a little deeper into your principles, or read something different and shift your perspective. Be patient. If you make mistakes, forgive yourself and keep going. All that hard work is worth it!
SD: For any meetup organizers who are listening, can you suggest any Stoic authors (ancient or modern) whose writings are the most publicly-accessible and make Stoicism interesting to newcomers?
BP: There are so many great books, I’ll just mention a few. I think Donald Robertson’s latest book on Marcus Aurelius, How to Think Like a Roman Emperor, would be great for a meetup — it’s very engaging, you learn a lot about history and Marcus’ life while also getting a great overview of useful Stoic concepts. I would also recommend two books I read when I was starting out: Keith Seddon’s Stoic Serenity: A Practical Course on Finding Inner Peace, and Chuck Chakrapani’s Unshakable Freedom: Ancient Stoic Secrets Applied to Modern Life. Both are very accessible and present Stoicism from different angles. And I’m looking forward to reading John Sellars’ new book, Lessons in Stoicism, which I’m sure will be a great introductory text!
An Interview with Kai Whiting
This quarter, The Stoic Fellowship had the pleasure of interviewing Kai Whiting. He is a researcher and lecturer in sustainability and Stoicism based at the University of Lisbon, Portugal. His main research interest is the practical application of Stoic philosophy to the challenges of the 21st century. His background is Environmental Engineering.
DL = Dan Lampert (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics and Editor of Indifferents Quarterly)
KW = Kai Whiting
DL: At Stoicon 2018, you spoke about how Stoicism can improve ‘human’ sustainability (beyond the environmental issues that are normally associated with sustainability). Tell us some of the ways in which Stoicism can benefit future generations.
KW: Simply put, natural resources are not infinite. If we extract them, produce something and throw it into landfill (people mistakenly say “throw away”, there is no away!) then we are preventing future generations from being able to achieve their goals.
If we contaminate the air or increase the temperature so much that most the planet becomes inhabitable then it is very difficult to enjoy a sense of wellbeing. Living in a bubble that disregards natural processes is irrational or even deluded and thus anti-Stoic. And, we can delude ourselves easily by ramping up the air conditioning. I think if we switched all AC units off this summer people would recognise that is hotter than it used to be.
Stoicism calls us to live in harmony. To revere Nature. To rationally use our resources in a self-controlled manner. There is a reason why ignorance is a vice, why greed is a vice, why injustice is a vice and why cowardice is a vice. They guarantee a wretched life. How is it just to allow other people’s homes go underwater due to sea level rises or turn immigrants away because our greed keeps them in poverty and sweatshop conditions which are often forms of modern slavery?
Stoicism offers us a way to navigate the world that is cosmopolitan in vision. A perspective that sees the humanity (i.e. the potential for virtue) in every neurotypical adult human being. It says that virtuous actions and thoughts provide true meaning and happiness. In this respect, and as I wrote in a co-authored open access paper with Leonidas Konstantakos (https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/10/3/193/htm):
The call to “live according to Nature”, far from being outdated or archaic, is actually refreshingly contemporary. It provides the tools, scope and urgency with which to deliver a far more considerate and dynamic ethical framework for the 21st century. It is exactly what we need to (re)consider and (re)contextualise the preferences, practices, policies, historical events, cultural norms, social conventions and human values that have caused the West to disregard planetary wellbeing, cause carbon emissions to climb and led to socioenvironmental inequality.
In short, I think the world urgently needs Stoicism’s cosmopolitan message and its call for harmony, and that in striving for excellence we serve humanity both now and into the future.
DL: You wrote in an article “Each individual’s Stoic journey is a tough one and progress towards eudaimonia (happiness, wellbeing) is a lifelong affair.” Which practical suggestions of Stoicism have you seen resonate or inspire people? I’m asking because Stoa group leaders are always looking for good discussion topics at meetings.
KW: For me, ever since the Painted Porch, Stoicism has been about bringing people into the conversation. It has been about discussing difficult subjects and navigating problems together, as we strive to live according to Nature — so this is an excellent question.
Well, when I visited the London Stoic group, I wanted to provide a practical response to an environmental problem that I spoke about in Stoicon — namely that certain farming practices take away an animal’s capacity to live according to its own nature (calves taking milk from their mother, for example). So, we all went out for a vegan meal. This introduced some people interested in Stoicism to a cuisine they hadn’t tried before. It gave them a firm and enjoyable memory, which removed the entry barrier that can accompany the uneasiness of trying something new. It was a way to share ideas and engage in a practical solution to cutting carbon emissions and challenging social norms when it comes to animal ethics and caring about the environment. It was also a way to do it that was fun and didn’t require too much effort.
I think Stoics can do much good through community gardening, which would certainly resonate with Musonius Rufus’ Discourses on the value of healthy and local eating.
Other easy things include going to your local store on occasion instead of the big brand all the time, which restores a sense a place among the cosmos! Buying Stoic books for your local library, actively boycotting items that are overly packaged in plastic, which just gets dumped into the sea and destroys wildlife… all these kinds of things are small acts of transformation that really state something about your values.
DL: Recently, you quoted Yuval Noah Harari from his book 21 Lessons for the 21st Century: “If we want to survive and flourish, humankind has little choice but to complement local loyalties with substantial obligations towards a global community.” Looking at this from a glass-half-full perspective, what groups of people or countries have shown interest in Stoicism? For example, people in the military appreciate Stoic thinking (uppercase S) and Asian cultures like Singapore and Nepal are stoic by nature (lowercase s).
KW: Tim LeBon’s research suggests that as people get older, they gravitate towards Stoic thinking. In my encounters with people influenced by Stoicism that is definitely true. I think it hard to sufficiently contemplate and appreciate the nuanced offered by Stoicism if you are 18 years old and leaving your parents’ home for the first time. Not impossible but certainly challenging.
Actually, I just discussed this issue with a Senior Vice President who happened to be visiting Portugal from the US. It seemed to him that Stoicism just really started resonating in the last six months. We both agreed that there seems to be a sudden spark into delving deeper into the philosophy, should you come across it relatively early on, in your 30s. Of course, for people in higher management positions the elements of Stoicism focused on by Ryan Holiday and Donald Robertson are particularly helpful.
I also find that women are very interested in Stoicism, despite what others may lead you to believe. After my Stoicon speech, that championed an inclusive conversation on complex issues in the 21st century, including climate breakdown, progressive diets and the gender pay gap, many women reached out to me, effectively to thank me for talking about the kind of Stoicism that interests them.
In this respect, especially regarding your question, I would argue that the way in which we live out and focus our Stoicism attracts those people it mirrors. Why would people with a military background find Stoicism helpful? Marcus Aurelius led campaigns. Why would Silicon Valley have an interest in Stoicism? I think Seneca the Younger explains a lot.
So, if we want more female Stoics, we need to engage in those issues that matter to them. You start talking about the inequality of the gender pay gap and the fact that injustice is a vice, they start listening. They start finding their voice because we offer a space for dialogue. It is not for “outsiders” to force a way in, it is for us to hand them over the mic so they can speak.
I look forward to Stoicon 2019 because, since my talk, there seems to have been a paradigm shift… just look at the topics and ask yourself, is it possible that my talk on “Stoicism and Sustainability” opened up that space? I would argue that it did.
DL: Beyond the self-help aspects of Stoicism, what areas of business can improve with Stoic practice? Some Stoa have members who are entrepreneurs, and we’d like to attract more with ideas that can be applied to running a business.
KW: The Stoic virtues clearly form the foundation of what businesspeople would call the “Triple Bottom Line”. This concept, without getting too technical, demonstrates that what is good for business is good for people and the environment. In other words, if you are focusing on shareholder value and think that it can be maximised by undercutting people’s pay or pensions or by polluting the environment, you are actually short-changing your shareholders. And, you are short-changing them because worker morale and the public perception of the company will suffer, along with the natural processes that the company depends on. Hence why many venture-funding capitalists are taking their money from dirty industry and putting it in start-ups and micro-businesses with a sustainable vision that puts people and the planet before profit.
Why does this work so well? Transparency. Responsibility…. Living according to Nature! In other words, this is an excellent practical application of a Stoic understanding of Hierocles circles of concerns and our recent expansion of them to include the environment in an open access academic paper entitled “Sustainable Development, Wellbeing and Material Consumption: A Stoic Perspective” (https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/2/474). I think my point is summed up here in the following quote:
A Stoic would be unlikely to profess a desire to have more or less material goods or for having them at all, as happiness cannot be obtained through anything except virtue. All externals are simply selections, which do not truly improve one’s condition, and may actually serve to distract an individual from acting virtuously. In fact, it could be that x and y actively undermine one’s virtue because in purchasing them, one inevitably supports and sustains the ways and means that created them: questionable sweatshop industries in Bangladesh, electronic factories in China, rainforest destruction in South America or shady financial agreements in the capital cities of Western Europe and North America.
The underlying concept was explored by Cicero who incorporated some Stoic aspects (and openly criticised others) in De Finibus (3.22) where he used the analogy of the archer or spear-thrower and the target (translation from Sellars [53]):
“One’s ultimate aim is to do all in one’s power to shoot straight, and the same applies with our ultimate goal… To actually hit the target is, as we say, to be selected but not sought.”
DL: In your article on changing society, you summed up Massimo’s concept of a proper Stoic practice as “the balance of inner detachment and outward empathy”. How would you suggest a person makes progress in this area?
KW: I have changed my view slightly on this issue and would say now the balance of inner detachment and outward sympathy, as I really think that it is beyond our control to be empathetic in the sense that we cannot truly know what someone else feels. Also, empathy would involve potentially taking on someone’s emotions, which is not particularly Stoic either.
I think a Stoic is called to be sympathetic, that is to say, as a Stoic you should really consider and act according to the fact that not everyone feels, acts or is in the same position as you. In this respect, we can try to look into a given issue with a more balanced standpoint without needing to dismiss it. Dismissal is unfortunately rife in the present Stoic community, whereby people start saying “it is beyond my control” when I (or someone else) mentions the problem of climate breakdown, intolerance, immigration and the like.
To this potentially callous view, I often ask someone if they play sports or multiplayer video games. Most people answer “yes”. At which point, I respond by saying “isn’t much of what happens in the game beyond your control? Isn’t this especially true in team sports or particularly competitive online gaming? As it is beyond your control, does that stop you from putting on your jersey or picking up the game controller?”
So, I think the best progress you can make involves properly taking the time to evaluate what precisely applies to you in the “Dichotomy of Control”. After all, this will depend on your social role, education and location. In other words, really get a grasp on who you are and what you are capable in society. Give yourself more credit for what you can control. It is true that we cannot control other people, but we can be a positive influence. If it were not so, none of us would or could be parents or successful leaders.
So, in a nutshell, we should detach ourselves from the result but not from the effort of trying. The trying is what we do when we sympathise (amongst other things). Even if we cannot capture, or do not want to want to capture, someone’s emotions, we can sit with them, we can offer to listen and if asked, provide support and guidance. Sometimes we should even act firmly and decisively. If your kid gets bullied, you go down to the school. Why cannot we apply the same logic, care and consideration to a colleague who gets bullied at work? In Stoicism we should. It is anti-Stoic to shrug your shoulders in either case!
After we have fulfilled our role, we can then disinvest from the result i.e. not get upset if a person does not take our advice or if our advice didn’t work. We can even disinvest from the issue, if after offering our support the person does not move forward, but we should do so calmly and rationally.
DL: I’ve heard you like Antonia Macaro’s book More Than Happiness: Buddhist and Stoic Wisdom for a Sceptical Age. In your opinion, what important aspects of Buddhist thought intersect with Stoicism?
KW: Although I disagree with her view on Stoic emotions (or the lack thereof) I do think that Macaro’s book is an excellent addition to the Stoic bookshelf. I don’t think I can quite do her work justice by answering that question. What I would say though is that a rational transcendentalism, founded on living at harmony at oneself and Nature is fundamental to our progress towards eudaimonia. I won’t give too much away because I literally just published an essay on it called “The Stoic God: A Call to Science or Faith” (https://thesideview.co/articles/the-stoic-god-a-call-to-science-or-faith/). I would encourage those that are particularly interested in theology and religion to read the piece and respond to me. I am easily found and you can contact me via my website StoicKai.com
DL: Do you have any upcoming articles or lectures that you can tell us about? We’d love to hear about new developments in Modern Stoicism.
KW: I have a book proposal doing the rounds at publishing houses. I cannot say much at the moment, but it is looking how Stoicism can be used to support societal transformation and be a driver for good. I would be interested to know what you all think about that concept!
In addition, I am finishing a paper on contemporary Stoic diet, and I am in the middle of a paper on Stoicism’s response to fast-fashion (throw away fashion), and another one on the environment and the Dichotomy of Control. I think that is enough to be getting on with!
If you’d like to learn more about Kai Whiting, go to his web site StoicKai.com
An Interview with Ward Farnsworth
In April 2019, The Stoic Fellowship was granted an interview with Ward Farnsworth, the Dean of the University of Texas School of Law and author of The Practicing Stoic, published in 2018. He has also written books on law, rhetoric, and chess.
DL = Dan Lampert (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics and Editor of Indifferents Quarterly)
WF = Ward Farnsworth
DL: Who influenced you to begin learning Stoicism?
WF: Thank you for having me here, Dan. I came across Epictetus when I was younger and, like many others, found him refreshing and helpful. After many years of reading others in the same vein, I became sorry that there was no book pulling together examples of how the most useful Stoic ideas were expressed in ancient times by their original teachers and by their descendants later. So I sought to produce something of that kind, and it became The Practicing Stoic. The book lets the reader compare how the basic teachings of the Stoics have been explained and applied by different writers in different ages.
DL: You credit Zeno of Citium as starting the school of Stoicism, by teaching in the public porch (or “stoa”). At the time, it might have been the most innovative and flexible way to teach a large number of people. With all the technology that is available today, is there any app/web/something that you wish for teaching Stoicism?
WF: Of all the known forms of pedagogical technology, I’m partial to the book. A book in electronic form counts, too, and has the advantage of cheap and easy distribution; but I still prefer the old-fashioned kind.
DL: In talking with people about your book, have they mentioned a Stoic concept that resonates with them?
WF: The original teachings of the Stoics were never set forth in a systematic way that builds from one idea to the next, at least in the writings that have survived to us. The Practicing Stoic tries to present them that way, and I’ve been pleased that some readers have found it helpful. More substantively, the book talks about the close relationship between the outlook of the Stoic and the mindset anyone develops toward a subject after long experience of it and the passage of time. I’ve had interesting conversations with many readers about that idea.
DL: You mentioned the names Cleanthes and Chrysippus, and how only fragments of their writings have survived history. Do you know of any recent developments that help with the study of those sources? In hosting meetings of Orlando Stoics and Tampa Stoics, I’m glad to see people are fascinated with historical aspects of this philosophy.
WF: Over the past generation or so, a great gift to the English-speaking student of Stoicism has been the publication of more convenient translations of the remaining fragments from the Greeks (such as Long and Sedley’s “The Hellenistic Philosophers”). Those fragments help show the theoretical underpinnings of Stoicism for those who have interest in them. My book focuses on Romans writers such as Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, who were more practical. I do think it’s best to learn about Stoicism first from the ancient teachers of the subject.
DL: I enjoyed your book’s format. Many fine quotes are included, and the author’s names / works appear in the margins. Beside Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius, you’ve added other greats like Plutarch and Schopenhauer. What was your inspiration for this format?
WF: I’ve been very fortunate to have a superb publisher (David Godine) and designer (Carl Scarbrough). They take more than the usual trouble to produce books that are a pleasure to own and to read. We started using the format you mentioned in previous books (Classical English Rhetoric and Classical English Metaphor) because it was an attractive and efficient way to put examples in front of the reader and comment on them. As you say, the book means to show how Stoic ideas have been discussed by some great thinkers who weren’t Stoics themselves — Montaigne, Plutarch and others. Anyone who cares about Stoicism and isn’t familiar with those writers is in for a treat.
DL: In chapter 5, you include a prescient quote from Montaigne, “whatever falls into our possession… we go panting after things unknown and things to come…” If Montaigne or the original Stoics were alive today, what would they say about the envy produced by social media or the relentless pace of developing new smart phones?
WF: Part of the value of reading the Stoics lies in seeing that the foolishness found in our own times is nothing new. One of Seneca’s letters talks about the craze for new and better baths. He says, “Nowadays people regard baths as fit for moths unless they have been so arranged that they receive the sun all day long through the widest openings. Unless you can bathe and get a tan at the same time. Unless there is a view from the tub over land and sea. So it goes; the establishments that had drawn crowds and admiration when they were first opened are avoided and accounted old-fashioned as soon as luxury has worked out some new way to outdo itself.” (Epistles 86.8) Of course we see the same cycles now. When it comes to social media, I think most good Stoics are torn between skepticism and contempt.
DL: In chapter 6, you talk about our fascination with money and how it “tends to make us ridiculous and to cause much misery to ourselves and to others.” With much of our society moving briskly in this direction, how can Stoa leaders help the public find the path to detachment and tranquility?
WF: The problem is an old one, and so are the best responses to it. I’m not sure it’s possible for anyone to do more or better than was done by Epictetus, or for that matter by Socrates: speak the truth, to yourself and to others, and hope for the best. The book shows what that meant 2,000 years ago, and the most useful insights from those times are just as useful today. The Stoics understood much of human nature about as well then as anyone does now.
For more info, “The Practicing Stoic” is available for purchase on Amazon.
An Interview with Massimo Pigliucci
The Stoic Fellowship had the pleasure of interviewing Massimo Pigliucci. He’s the K.D. Irani Professor of Philosophy at the City College of New York and also the organizer of the Stoic School of Life meetup in New York City, hosted by the Society for Ethical Culture. He shared with us some practical tips on hosting a Stoic meetup, plus offered an insight into his book How to be a Stoic, which debuted a month ago.
D = Dan Lampert (Founder of The Orlando Stoics)
M = Massimo Pigliucci
D: When did your meetup group start and what types of people does it appeal to?
M: It began fairly recently, in August 2016. We have had 27 meetups so far, and the group counts 319 members. Participants are from varied backgrounds, ranging from college students to retired people. They tend to be college educated, but not only, with an unusually high percentage of people who work in the tech industry (programmers, etc.) or in psychology.
The goal of the meetup is actually to run as a modern version of the ancient schools, where I engage in Socratic dialogue with people at different stages of progress, from novices to those who have been practicing Stoicism for a while. We alternate among classic Stoicism, recent authors, and a lot of practical topics.
D: Is there a certain bit of Stoic wisdom that intrigues members to attend their first meetup or keeps them coming back?
M: Good question. Usually they come for the first time because they have a general interest in applied philosophy, not necessarily Stoicism. What keeps them coming back, I think, is that Epictetus, Marcus, and Seneca deeply resonate with them. More than one person has told me that Stoicism “clicked” when they first read or heard about it; several added that they have often acted “like a Stoic” in the past, without knowledge of the philosophy, and are now glad to find that there actually is a sophisticated theoretical structure behind what was intuitive for them.
D: Have you promoted your Stoic group on Meetup with certain keywords? or have you changed keywords over time?
M: “Socratic” and “practical” are clearly prominent words in the description of the meetup, and I think they resonate, especially the latter. Each individual event is then promoted with a tailored made description, usually, again, emphasizing the practical applications of whatever topic we are going to discuss.
D: Have you promoted your meetup group on other web sites or in traditional ways? Examples: on campus or in cafes?
M: Not on campus/cafes, since I honestly have little time to do that. But the meetup is promoted on a number of web sites, beginning with that of the Society for Ethical Culture, as well as several outlets publicizing cultural events in the city. I also make fairly heavy use of my Twitter following (which is reasonably large, @mpigliucci), and my philosophy Facebook page (http://tinyurl.com/llodsg4).
D: Who’s your favorite Stoic author (could be from ancient times or a modern living author)?
M: Epictetus, which is why my book, How to Be a Stoic, is written as an imaginary dialogue with him. In part it was chance, since he was the first Stoic I’ve read after I got interested in the philosophy; in part it is because of his clarity of writing and his wicked sense of humor; and in part because I actually disagree with him on a number of issues (e.g., his too pious talk of God, and his presentation of the design argument), which reminds me that this is a philosophy, not a religion, and I’m free to disagree even with the Masters.
D: In your meetups, do you recognize certain celebrities or historic figures as Stoic?
M: Yes, in some cases people who actually characterized themselves as such (from Cato the Younger to James Stockdale), in other cases people who have been influenced by Stoicism even though they didn’t consider themselves Stoic (e.g., Nelson Mandela).
In general I talk a lot about the importance of role models in Stoicism, which, as Seneca says, are the straight rulers by which we measure just how crooked our own character is.
D: In your new book, How to be a Stoic (Chapter 3), you discuss how Stoic ideas have influenced other philosophers and belief systems. Can you take us through some of them?
M: Most of the major Christian theologians, from Paul to Augustine to especially Thomas Aquinas, have engaged with Stoicism, usually with a healthy dose of respect, especially for the Stoic emphasis on virtue, character, and duty. Aquinas in particular arrived at his famous description of the seven Christian virtues by importing wholesale the four Stoic ones (practical wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice) and adding faith, hope and charity.
Another major philosopher influenced by Stoicism was Baruch Spinoza, whose entire metaphysics and ethics are very much like the ones proposed by the Stoics. Spinoza thought that God is the same as Nature, just as the Stoics believed (they were what we would call pantheists), and that ethics is about maintaining moral integrity in the face of whatever the world throws at us, again very much like the Stoic concept of virtue.
D: You’re planning a special event in Rome in July 2017. Tell us a little about that.
M: Right, that’s my first attempt at teaching a summer school about Stoicism, an intense three-day course, part of what I call the “Stoa Nova”, a series of programs that include the meetup, the summer school, Stoic Camp New York (with my friend Greg Lopez), apps for Stoic practice, and online courses.
The idea of the summer school is that about 20 people will be studying and discussing ancient and modern Stoicism — this year focusing especially on Epictetus’ Enchiridion — as well as spending some time visiting ancient Roman sites in the Eternal City, like the beautiful and little appreciated National Roman Museum. Oh, and some fellowship over delicious Roman meals and local wine…
An Interview with Donald Robertson
In September 2017, The Stoic Fellowship had a fascinating interview with Donald Robertson. He is a cognitive-behavioral psychotherapist, writer, and trainer. He’s also the author of five books on philosophy and psychotherapy (plus dozens of articles in professional journals and magazines). Three of his books are about Stoicism: The Philosophy of Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy: Stoic Philosophy as Rational and Cognitive Psychotherapy, Teach Yourself: Stoicism and the Art of Happiness, and Build your Resilience. And he’s currently working on a new book about the Stoicism of Marcus Aurelius. We talked about upcoming Stoic events, his CBT book, and about the worldwide event Stoic Week.
DL = Dan Lampert (Founder of The Orlando Stoics)
DR = Donald Robertson
DL: Good morning. Let’s start by talking about Modern Stoicism (the movement) and Stoicon (the event in October 2017).
DR: I’m one of the founding members of Modern Stoicism, which was founded by Prof. Chris Gill at Exeter University in England in 2012. (See modernstoicism.com) I run the Stoic Week and Stoic Mindfulness and Resilience Training (SMRT) courses on their behalf. This year I’m also the organizer of the annual Stoicon conference on Modern Stoicism, and Stoicon-x Toronto. Stoicon is now in its fifth year and it’s been growing annually — we’re expecting 400 delegates this year, making it the largest conference on Stoicism ever as far as I’m aware. Last year, 3,400 people took part online in Stoic Week and this year we’re expecting that to increase — at the time of writing 1,900 people have already enrolled. Stoic Week begins on 16th October this year and you can find out more at learn.modernstoicism.com.
DL: What city do you live in, and what local Stoic group are you a member of?
DR: Halifax, NS, at the moment. I’m not a member of a local Stoic group, though.
DL: The four cardinal values in Stoicism are wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. Yet much of the world seems to be heading in another direction: consumerism and superficial values. What Stoic bridge or concept can we (as meetup organizers) use to help people discover the value of Stoicism?
DR: I’ve been running workshops on Stoicism for about twenty years now. My experience has been that most people become interested in Stoicism by reading “The Meditations” of Marcus Aurelius or a modern book on the subject like William Irvine’s “A Guide to the Good Life”. Steer people toward good introductory resources to help get them started. (I wrote Crash Course in Stoicism for that reason.) Psychological exercises are my area of specialism, and I’ve also found those important in helping people to discover the personal value of Stoicism, particularly the one we call the View from Above today. Stoic Week is also designed as an introduction to Stoicism and probably ten thousand people around the world have now taken part over the past five years, so I’d suggest to other newcomers to look into that. Cognitive therapists know that social proof is important. People are motivated to explore philosophical and psychological ideas when they see other people just like them persevering and reporting benefits from doing so. Groups are incredibly valuable in that respect, as they allow people to meet others and learn from their experience. That’s always how Stoicism was meant to be. There are no gurus in Stoicism. As Seneca said, rather than a physician handing down prescriptions to his patients, he saw himself as a man undergoing treatment, turning to the patient in the hospital bed beside him and sharing his personal observations on how things have gone so far, what worked and what didn’t, etc. I suspect that was the attitude of the Stoa’s founders, as well as none of them claimed to be perfectly wise, and the sect rejected the name “Zenonians” in favour of simply calling themselves the philosophers of the porch.
DL: In your popular book “The Philosophy of Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy”, chapter 8 discusses how modern CBT includes mindful meditation practices and is similar to Buddhist practices. Where do you draw the line between human conditions that are treatable (or not) with Stoic practices?
DR: For any diagnosable mental health condition, any modern cognitive therapist is duty-bound to recommend assessment by a trained professional and the use of relevant evidence-based protocols as the first line of treatment. Stoicism can play a part in that as an adjunct to CBT. Then there are many subclinical problems, which people experience, many of which can be helped with Stoicism, or a combination of Stoicism and CBT. That’s the broad answer. A more specific response might be to say that Stoicism is useful for subclinical problems. It’s maybe less relevant than CBT: for instance in treating things like specific phobias or panic attacks, where quite particular techniques are known to be most effective. Individuals with GAD or OCD might not respond well to using something as philosophical as Stoicism, perhaps, although individuals always vary to some extent. Where there’s risk, as in major depression or anorexia, we also have to be more cautious about recommending the use of alternative methods such as Stoicism. But almost any CBT can be tinged with Stoic ideas and practices if the client is interested in using them. There are also areas where Stoicism can help, but guidance is often needed. For example, people with GAD (or who are prone to worry) might easily find that some Stoic techniques backfire if not done in the right way, whereas done properly they can be beneficial. The main technique I see people having problems with is premeditation of adversity or imaginal exposure. That’s where guidance from a modern therapist can help. For example, it’s well-known that many people fail to benefit from exposure therapy (or even make themselves worse) because they underestimate the amount of time required for habituation to take place, and feelings of anxiety to abate naturally, in a healthy manner. Our instinct is to cut the exercise short, but that can prevent it from working or even leave us more sensitized to anxiety cues.
DL: In your blog, an entry from 2016 described that your CBT book started as a synthesis of Pierre Hadot’s psychological strategies and modern CBT ideas. Can you give us an example of how these two areas merged in your mind?
DR: I’m a “techniques guy” in the field of therapy. And so I like to systematize and categorize different sorts of techniques in therapy. When I read Hadot’s books, I immediately realized that what he called “spiritual exercises” were essentially psychotherapy exercises — and in many cases — they fall into the same categories as familiar CBT techniques. So, in my first book on Stoicism, I set about trying to provide a comprehensive overview of the relationship and drawing connections between all the different Stoic and CBT exercises that shared common ground. The key thing is that the Stoics adopted a cognitive theory of emotions, and that fundamental premise is shared with modern cognitive therapy, so they’re bound to have arrived at similar conclusions about strategies and techniques. There’s also a considerable direct influence of Stoicism on CBT, mainly mediated through the Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy of Albert Ellis, who had read the Stoics. For instance, Epictetus repeatedly tells his students not to allow their minds to be swept along by troubling impressions, into rumination or worry, etc. He tells them to gain respite until their feelings abate naturally by telling themselves that it’s not things that upset them, but their own judgements and apostrophizing the impression, talking to it, and saying “You are just an impression and not at all the things you claim to represent.” That’s clearly similar to the technique of cognitive distancing in modern CBT and methods such as worry postponement, which are common to multiple treatment protocols, especially in GAD.
DL: You’ve recently conducted a Stoic class online. What new material did you cover? When will the next class be?
DR: My last course was called “How to Think Like a Roman Emperor” and it’s about the Stoic philosophy of Marcus Aurelius, focusing on how his life can help us to understand his use of Stoic philosophy and psychology. So my aim was to try to introduce people to Stoicism as a way of life, but from a totally different angle, compared to SMRT or Stoic Week, etc. Marcus opened “The Meditations” by looking in depth at his role models. That’s how the ancient Stoics thought we should learn virtue. There’s no question they believed that was more powerful than reading books. So in the absence of a living example, we look at how Marcus’ life and character can help us to understand Stoicism. I think that when you approach a subject from a radically different point of view, it’s very valuable. It often opens up new connections and resolves old problems. For example, the two most common misconceptions about Stoicism are arguably that the focus on acceptance might make us overly-passive, like doormats, or that it’s somehow cold and unemotional, like Mr. Spock in Star Trek. Well, these misunderstandings can be tedious to address by arguing from the perspective of textual analysis or philosophical exposition. However, when we look at Marcus as a living example of Stoicism, they just dissolve. He clearly wasn’t passive — quite the opposite. He also happens to have been an exceptionally warm and affectionate man. We can take those aspects of his life and character then and show how they’re reflections of what Stoicism actually teaches us: the importance of virtuous action, and the central role of natural affection in Stoic Ethics.
DL: In the USA, we know Stoicism is popular with Silicon Valley and people in the military. Why doesn’t it appeal to the general population more widely?
DR: Well, I believe it’s a bit more diverse than that. For Modern Stoicism, we have collected huge volumes of demographic data from Stoic Week and SMRT. So, we can see people from different countries and backgrounds are involved, and that’s also reflected in the attendance at our conferences. I’d say the people who are interested in Stoicism do fall into several discernible groups, though:
- The military
- Academic philosophers and classicists
- Psychotherapists
- Motivational speakers and corporate trainers
- People interested in a Western alternative to Buddhism
- People interested in a more secular alternative to Christianity
- Sportsmen and people who are interested in self-discipline and endurance
I’m amazed at how many people are interested in Stoicism, though. I think it helps to view it in terms of the number of people who read The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius — the most popular book on Stoicism. My barber loves Marcus Aurelius. I was talking to my girlfriend about that at a local bar, and one of the young hipster guys serving us beer rolled up his sleeve and showed me his Marcus Aurelius tattoo, then his co-worked overheard and told us that he loved The Meditations as well. There are Stoics everywhere, in all walks of life, in my experience. Even with the reach that Modern Stoicism has through the media and events like Stoic Week, we’ve still only scratched the surface.
DL: What is the future of Stoicism in our world? Specifically, what groups (who know little about Stoicism) could be served by a Stoic education?
DR: It’s got a lot of potential to reach a wider general audience in my view. However, in particular, Stoicism is absolutely ideal as a possible solution to a specific problem in psychology: “stress prevention” or resilience-building. CBT is designed to be remedial and short-term by nature. Stoicism is preventative and long-term. Many features of Stoicism make it more suited to long-term resilience training than CBT, in my view. Not many people get Albert Ellis tattoos but I’ve seen plenty of Stoic tattoos now… the point being that people identify with Stoicism at a deeper level and that makes it more suited as a long-term change strategy, compared to conventional CBT.
DL: As an organizer for Stoic Week, tell us the purpose of this global event and when is the next one?
DR: Stoic Week runs for seven days each year, since 2013, and this year it begins on the 16th of October. It’s an international online event, open to everyone, and completely free of charge. The format is a seven-day course, consisting of reading and practical exercises, designed by a multi-disciplinary team of experts. We gather detailed information from participants, which has helped us to refine the content over the years. Tim LeBon’s analysis each year consistently shows about a 10% improvement in validated measures of well-being and mood… the same measures used in standard CBT clinical trials or Positive Psychology, etc. That’s a good improvement for such a short period of time: seven days. Treatment protocols would normally last longer and be more focused on specific skill sets. Stoic Week is more intended as an introduction to modern Stoicism. That’s why we developed SMRT, which lasts four weeks and is more narrowly focused on skills training. It produced similar but much larger results, which suggests that there’s a “dose effect” to Stoicism. A little bit of Stoic practice is good, but doing four times as much Stoicism has bigger benefits. That’s still pretty short-term, though, so it would be interesting to see what the long-term effects of using a more long-term protocol would be, as Stoicism itself is really a philosophy and way of life, rather than a set of psychological techniques. Nevertheless, it’s reassuring to know that when we extract the psychological techniques and test them, they do work.
An Interview with Chuck Chakrapani
In January 2018, The Stoic Fellowship was granted an interview Dr. Chuck Chakrapani. He is the author of five wonderful Stoic books: Unshakable Freedom, A Fortunate Storm, The Good Life Handbook, and two books based on Epictetus’ Discourses, called Stoic Choices and Stoic Foundations. He also presented at Stoicon 2017 and Stoicon-x Toronto. We spoke about Stoicism, modern life, and the impact of technology.
DL = Dan Lampert (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics)
CC = Chuck Chakrapani
DL: I enjoyed your talk at Stoicon 2017 entitled “The Stoic Minimalist”. You created a great metaphor by saying Stoicism is not a staircase, where each step builds upon the last, but rather Stoicism is a symphony. And you added that someone could read any 10 of the 96 Discourses by Epictetus, in order to cover the major concepts in Stoicism. What would you posit are the most important Stoic concepts for the modern world?
CC: Thank you for your kind words. The interesting thing about Stoicism is that all its concepts are interlinked. So any two or three concepts that appeal to you — if you study them in depth — will bring with it the other concepts as well. The concepts that appealed to me initially were:
- You can choose your response under any conditions (Marcus Aurelius)
- Some things are under your control and some are not. Don’t concern yourself about things you don’t control (Epictetus)
- All good and evil arise out of your actions (Epictetus) because you only have control over these.
Some other Stoic principles (but not these) may appeal to you. That doesn’t matter. Stay with and explore whatever appeals to you. Soon enough you will be practicing other principles as well.
DL: What city do you live in, and what local Stoic group are you a member of?
CC: I live in Toronto. I am not a member of any local group although there is a flourishing Stoic Circle, organized by Peter Limberg and Daniel Kazandjian.
DL: In another part of your Stoicon 2017 presentation, I think you described how our culture supports robotic behavior. In other words, people feel they have the right to strike back when something happens to them (especially on social media). Instead, you gently reminded people “you are not a robot, you can choose your response.” Did I remember right? Do you have other Stoic tips for people who are on social media frequently?
CC: People seem to be too easily upset by contrary points of view and are often uncivil (to put it mildly) to others on social media. You might try to remember there is no reason to be angry. Stoics should know that your anger can harm only you. As Buddha put it, being angry is like “drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.”
DL: When you meet people who’ve studied Stoicism — or perhaps read one of your books — what concept or idea did they say resonates with them?
CC: This depends on the person. There is no consensus. But the concept that helps most people in distress is the idea that there is no point in stewing over things if they are not under your control.
DL: One of your blog entries in December 2017 gave advice on dealing with impressions. This topic is covered by Seneca and Epictetus often, but I felt your approach was engaging. You said we naturally move toward the good and away from the bad, therefore our only concern should be about making correct choices. What more advice can you give on modern living where good and bad news is a river flowing through our lives (TV, web sites, social media, email, texts).
CC: The news itself is of little concern to us. External conditions — who is in the White House, global warming, pollution etc. — are what they are. And they will be what they will be. We need to concern ourselves only with our thoughts and actions, without getting upset about how things are. As Gandhi said, “Be the change you want to see in the world.” It is far more rational than desperately trying to rearrange the world. Good and bad come from us.
DL: As the organizer of The Orlando Stoics, I’m often asked by newcomers “how can I start practicing Stoicism?” Since I’ve heard your reputation is for communicating Stoic philosophy in plain-English, I’m curious what suggestions you might offer to people who are starting their practice of Stoicism in their own lives?
CC replied with this list:
- Don’t try to learn all about Stoicism. Not at the beginning anyway.
- Start with something simple. I recommend Enchiridion. (My online version The Good Life Handbook is available on Amazon and other online stores and it is free.)
- Read the entire book (it takes only a couple of hours).
- Note two or three things — or even just a single thing — that appeals to you.
- Keep practicing what appeals to you.
- Keep reading whatever you find interesting.
- After a while, you will know what to do. There is no shortage of advice on what to read.
DL: In your book “Unshakable Freedom”, chapter 1 begins with the idea that freedom is an ideal for most of us, not a reality. Specifically, our freedoms are limited by our jobs, our finances, our health, and many other things. How do you feel that technology and it’s ubiquity help or hinder our freedoms?
CC: Technology can both help and hinder our EXTERNAL freedoms. On balance, currently I find technology very helpful and not a hindrance. But that can change and change fast. But our question is, no matter how many of our external freedoms are taken away, can we still be free? As Viktor Frankl put it, “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” That is the first of the Stoic freedoms. And that’s also the last of the Stoic freedoms. In fact, it is the only freedom we can truly have.
DL: In your book “The Good Life Handbook”, chapter 40 is entitled “Cultivate modesty and self-respect”. Your advice is focused on girls as they grow up and get attention for their looks, which can cause them to be preoccupied with their appearance. Exploring this from another angle… what Stoic approach can we use to help kids who are publicly-shamed or bullied for their appearance?
CC: I don’t have that much experience with kids and I am reluctant to offer generalized advice in this area.
DL: In my other interviews with Donald Robertson and Massimo Pigliucci, we’ve touched upon how Stoicism is popular within certain groups (the military, Silicon Valley, and people interested in secular alternatives to religion). What groups do you identify with? Or what groups can you add to the list?
CC: Interesting. I am invited to give a talk in Silicon Valley next month myself. I heard that the National Health Services in the UK is promoting Stoicism, although I have no personal knowledge of this.
I do not identify myself with any group — no party, no religion, no country, no philosophy. I don’t even call myself a Stoic. As I see it, all I have is a life to live and I use any good idea I can find anywhere. I find Stoic ideas are among the most useful to live a productive life. So I use them.
I try to popularize Stoic ideas using plain English via thestoicgym.com because I think it might help others. But I am no proselytizer and, if the entire world rejects Stoicism, I will still be using Stoic ideas as long as I find them useful.